(1) >An "Ask Bob" question was submitted by: >Name: Jason Cuadra >From: Manila, Philippines >Email: JasonCuadra@astec-power.com > >How did Mazda detune the European 1.6's to >90hp? (That's what we got here, complete with >Euro spec rear fog lamp) > >Thanks in Advance, >Jason > > > >Jason Cuadra, Manila, Philippines The 88/90hp engine wasnıt a detuned version of the 115/116hp 1.6, but rather was a different unit than the one used in the original 1600s. The same engine family, but a unit derived from a later mormally-aspirated B-series, not the modification of the B6 Turbo which the first (1989-92) 1600 was. The later 1.6 also has a completely different engine management system. bwob ================================================== (2) Hi Bob, Thanks a bundle for your response! :-O I'm totally shocked by your response! Could you tell us why they did it? I mean, why not just detune the orig 1.6? A whole slew of questions come to mind. (Uh-oh!) How can we be sure we have that detuned 1.6 vs. an auto version engine (our cars are all manual tranny BTW). First and foremost - I want something like 160 crank hp by adding an intercooled turbo :-) (mabye 8spi) - am I better of now installing a used and refreshed orig. 1.6 (from Japan) than diddling with the detuned engine? So does this engine have the vaunted piston cooling spray that makes it so forced air friendly? Where can I now find more info on it? (Where can I get the service manual for it).. Very best regards and thanks again, Jason PS I now want to send you a thank you card for the info! :) ============================ (3) >Hi Bob, > >Thanks a bundle for your response! > >:-O I'm totally shocked by your response! Could you tell us why they did >it? >I mean, why not just detune the orig 1.6? A whole slew of questions come to >mind. (Uh-oh!) There was an engine rationalisation (the 1.6 turbo on which the MX-5ıs engine was based was taken out of production) and the initial plan was that the 1.8 was going to be the sole engine for the car worldwide. When a number of European importers complained that the 1.8 was too expensive or would have tax problems in specific markets, the new 1.6 was hurredly slipped into the program by taking a standard Familia/323 1.6, making some minor revisions to the lower block and putting a new head on it. > >How can we be sure we have that detuned 1.6 vs. an auto version engine >(our cars >are all manual tranny BTW). Again, if weıre talking about the 88/90hp engine it isnıt detuned, itıs a different engine. ALL 1.6s built before 1994 have the original, turbo-based engine (which w a s detuned to 105hp for North American automatics). If itıs a 1994 or later and a 1.6, itıs the 88/90hp atmo engine. > >First and foremost - I want something like 160 crank hp by adding an >intercooled >turbo :-) (mabye 8spi) - am I better of now installing a used and refreshed >orig. 1.6 (from Japan) than diddling with the detuned engine? So does this >engine have the vaunted piston cooling spray that makes it so forced air >friendly? Iım no friend of turbocharging (or forced inducction of any kind unless itıs for a diesel. And Iım no fan of diesel Miatas), but if you must, definately use the original 1.6. And a 1993 if you can find it. Internals (pistons, ring snd the like) from a Japanese domestic 1.6 Familia or Laser Turbo might be worth looking for, and should still be available from dealers there as new parts. Mind you the BEST boosted output Miata with any sort of engine transplant Iıve ever come across was a car that someone dropped an atmo Nissan SR20DE into. Absolutely magical, and something Mazda should look at, though theyıd have to use one of their own 2.0 fours instead of the brilliant Nissan unit. >Where can I now find more info on it? (Where can I get the service manual for >it).. For a regular 1.6 Miata? Mazdaıs US arm should be able to come up with something. Iım sure thereıs information at Miata.net thatıll help track one down. Or somebody at one of the Forums might be able to help. Good luck. bwob ============================ (4) Many thanks again for your replies. The info is very important for us Philippine Miata Clubbers (http://members.tripod.com/~ks98/home.htm) We've been in the dark for sooo long, Mazda is no help :-(. >> the new 1.6 was hurredly slipped into the program by taking a standard Familia/323 1.6, making some minor revisions to the lower block and putting a new head on it. How different is this head from the 1.6/116hp? >> ... If itıs a 1994 or later and a 1.6, itıs the 88/90hp atmo engine. OK. :-( So again, no oil cooling spray, not turbo-friendly, right? >> Iım no friend of turbocharging ... , but if you must, definately use the original 1.6. -Tranny will fit, right? -116hp unit is better even if I'm only after 160 crank hp, right? > And a 1993 if you can find it. What's special about the '93? >> Internals (pistons, ring snd the like) from a Japanese domestic 1.6 Familia or Laser Turbo might be worth looking for, and should still be available from dealers there as new parts. I'd rather have NA 160hp too, but it's much more expensive than adding a turbo - isn't that right? Here's another problem - I can get a surplus used Japanese 1.6 here cheap, but used ECUs will come from the States... AND.. the surplus market here doesn't give you any info about what year, and mileage, etc.. >> Mind you the BEST boosted output Miata with any sort of engine transplant Iıve ever come across was a car that someone dropped an atmo Nissan SR20DE into . That would be nice but too difficult for me.. >> The later 1.6 also has a completely different engine management system. So the Miata Link ECU won't work... :( >>Where can I now find more info on it? (Where can I get the service manual forit).. > For a regular 1.6 Miata? Sorry, I meant, where can I find more info on the 90hp unit? The miatapower mailing list has nobody with the 90hp unit... BTW, may I share this info on the miatapower list? Thanks again, Jason :) =============================== (5) >Many thanks again for your replies. The info is very important for us >Philippine Miata Clubbers (http://members.tripod.com/~ks98/home.htm) >We've been in the dark for sooo long, Mazda is no help :-(. Hey, no problem. I visited your site. I am reminded how much I despise Geocities and their infernal pop-up windows. I had a chuckle at the report on the Subic run, with the dinner at a resturant (I guess) called ³Meat Plus². Sounds like my kind of place! >>> the new 1.6 was hurredly slipped into the program by taking a standard >Familia/323 1.6, making some minor revisions to the lower block and putting a >new head on it. >How different is this head from the 1.6/116hp? Different combustion chamber design, elimination of the distributor drive on the intake cam and I think thereıs a difference in valve size. And itıs not that the 88/90hp engine has larger valves, if you get my meaning. Also, (and this has nothing to do with the head but I just remembered it) Iım pretty sure the block was O-ringed with the first 1.6 (an artifact from it coming from the turbo) and I know the block was stiffened slightly when it was modified for londgitudal mounting. Hirai-san was an absolute lunatic about driveline stiffness from the fan to the back cover of the third member. >>> ... If itıs a 1994 or later and a 1.6, itıs the 88/90hp atmo engine. >OK. :-( So again, no oil cooling spray, not turbo-friendly, right? Itıs just as turbo friendly as any 1995 Familia or Laser 1.6. Or even a 1978 323. >>> Iım no friend of turbocharging ... , but if you must, definately use the >original 1.6. >-Tranny will fit, right? >-116hp unit is better even if I'm only after 160 crank hp, right? The gearbox was carried over throughout the first-generation carıs life. They may have futzed with ratios between original 1.6, 1.8 and 88/90hp 1.6, however. >> And a 1993 if you can find it. >What's special about the '93? Itıs newer and likely to have covered fewer kilometres than an older engine (important if you want to force-feed it) and you avoid the crankshaft problems which beset the 1989-91 production. >>> Internals (pistons, ring snd the like) from a Japanese domestic 1.6 Familia >or Laser Turbo might be worth looking for, and should still be available from >dealers there as new parts. >I'd rather have NA 160hp too, but it's much more expensive than adding a >turbo - >isn't that right? That depends upon how itıs done. We had kludged a revised cold air intake system for the original 1.6 in the MRA ?skunk worksı (and installed it in the metallic teal ?color carı) with an MPV hotwire replacing the Miataıs air-mass sensor, re-plumbed the intake, fitted a fabricated header, a larger-diameter catalyst and low-restriction exhaust using a the resonator that was fitted to the 1977 Camaro Z28 in place of a muffler. We advanced the cam, ran it on premium and managed to get 152hp out of it. At the rear wheels. Emissions performance was even better than the stock engine. Warm-up was critical (one of the reasons it didnıt go any further), though I canıt imagine thatıd be the problem in Philippines it would have been in, say, San Francisco in January. I think we figured you could dupe the system for around US$950. But this was back in 1990. >Here's another problem - I can get a surplus used Japanese 1.6 here cheap, but >used ECUs will come from the States... >AND.. the surplus market here doesn't give you any info about what year, and >mileage, etc.. What do the Japanese do with the engine management systems that were hooked up to all those pulled engines? The US system hooked to the 88/90hp engine would be fun to watch. Even more fun to put on the emission rollers. >>> Mind you the BEST boosted output Miata with any sort of engine transplant >Iıve ever come across was a car that someone dropped an atmo Nissan SR20DE >into >. >That would be nice but too difficult for me.. Too bad. Itıs such a sweet package Iım sorely tempted to do one up myself. And apparently thereıs a guy in Adelaide doing one with a SR20DET. Doesnıt do much for me, but with agenuine 238hp in 994kg Iım sure it will have volcanic performance. And then some. >>> The later 1.6 also has a completely different engine management >system. >So the Miata Link ECU won't work... :( I seriously doubt it. >>>Where can I now find more info on it? (Where can I get the service manual >forit).. >> For a regular 1.6 Miata? >Sorry, I meant, where can I find more info on the 90hp unit? The miatapower >mailing list has nobody with the 90hp unit... You might try a letter to Mazdaıs UK importer. They got stuck with the engine there too. In fact I think they were one of the instigators. Added bonus: they even sort of speak English. >BTW, may I share this info on the miatapower list? Uh, I guess so. But at the risk of sounding a bit dense, whatıs the miatapower list? >Thanks again, >Jason :) Hey, okeh! bwob ====================================== (6) > I am reminded how much I despise Geocities and their infernal pop-up windows. You're complaining, my connection is typically 16k/sec! I just pounce on the "close" button as soon as it appears :) >> I had a chuckle at the report on the Subic run, with the dinner at a resturant (I guess) called ³Meat Plus². Sounds like my kind of place! Standing joke is, after you eat one of their massive steaks, you don't need an LSD! Here's an anecdote. Some of the club guys joined a timed hill climb event organized by the local sports car club (different makes) who kind of regard the Miata as "not a real sports car", because it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. The guys ate too much during lunch break, sat around to digest, missed the briefing, and arrived almost too late, then got 4 out of 5 trophies! We came, We ate, We conquered -all with the 90hp engine against other 1.6-1.8 sports cars. 2 Sebringized guys won against other cars, 2.0L NA's. That's why we love our Miatae in spite of the weak engine output. >>> the new 1.6 was hurredly slipped into the program by taking a standard >Familia/323 1.6, making some minor revisions to the lower block and putting a >new head on it. Aside from cost, a target peak power of 90hp, (while addled by a short schedule), and better emissions(?) what were their design goals? Did they think they'd sell enough cheapened 1.6's in Europe to justify the dev't and tooling costs? Were they right? > Different combustion chamber design, For better emissions? And itıs not that the 88/90hp engine has larger valves, if you get my meaning. Eeyyoww, smaller valves! I gotta get that service manual! > Also,(and this has nothing to do with the head but I just remembered it) Iım pretty sure the block was O-ringed with the first 1.6 (an artifact from it coming from the turbo) and I know the block was stiffened slightly when it was modified for londgitudal mounting. Hirai-san was an absolute lunatic about driveline stiffness from the fan to the back cover of the third member. And the 90hp engine doesn't have those stiffeners anymore? > Itıs just as turbo friendly as any 1995 Familia or Laser 1.6. Or even a 1978 323. Any links to where I can find turbo'ed examples of the above? > Which of the below mainly limits the power in the 90hp - aka, how do we increase the power? intake cam exhaust cam intake manifold ports valve sizes valve seat shape (cheaper less accurate machining?) valve shoulder shape (cheaper less accurate machining?) mixture isn't optimal at top end timing isn't optimal at top end > We had kludged a revised cold air intake system for the original 1.6 in the MRA ?skunk worksı (and installed it in the metallic teal ?color carı) with an MPV hotwire replacing the Miataıs air-mass sensor, re-plumbed the intake, fitted a fabricated header, a larger-diameter catalyst and low-restriction exhaust using a the resonator that was fitted to the 1977 Camaro Z28 in place of a muffler. We advanced the cam, ran it on premium and managed to get 152hp out of it. At the rear wheels. Wow, but at what RPM? How was low end torque? Emissions performance was even better than the stock engine. From the combustion chamber shape and/or more accurate airflow metering bec. of the hotwire sensor? > What do the Japanese do with the engine management systems that were hooked up to all those pulled engines? Last I looked in one place, nobody knew where the ECUs were! I'll have to try and look elsewhere. > The US system hooked to the 88/90hp engine would be fun to watch. Even more fun to put on the emission rollers. How about the US system hooked to a Japanese 1.6? BTW our Miatae run with no O2 sensor input, and no cats. I'm thinking maybe I should find a Japanese 1.8 instead - but it must be a lot more difficult - I'd have to change the wiring harness. >> an atmo Nissan SR20DE > Itıs such a sweet package Iım sorely tempted to do one up myself. Hey you only live once! > Uh, I guess so. But at the risk of sounding a bit dense, whatıs the miatapower list? Oh, check out http://www.miatapower.net All these forced induction guys hang out there, and some NA guys. Mostly customers of Bill Cardell's Flying Miata (http://www.dlralt.com). His claim to fame is the FM2 turbo kit, ~220hp at the wheels, 15 psi Garrett unit, BIG intercooler, big injectors + Miatalink ECU. I wrote a computer program to extract torque and power from an audio recording made from the "IG" pin of the diagnostic connector, during a 2nd gear run from 1k rpm to redline, which corrects for drag and gearing. (I got the idea from http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/homedyno/dynokit.htm) It seems our torque curve is the same as the US 1.6 from 2 to 4k rpm, but while the US 1.6 stays flat to 5.5k, ours drops off, yielding 10-15 hp less peak power. We get ~80rwhp stock, and a Sebring guy with water injection running 12 deg only gets 105 hp. The results will soon come out on our webpage. I'm waiting for this guy who had headwork done to submit to my dyno. :) Best regards, Jason ======================= (7) Hey, I did see this. Weıve just had a helluva tough issue to get out (with two staffers out with the flu during production week, which ?allowdı me to write about a third of the whole magazine - UGH!) followed by two back to back trips for introductions. I was beginning to think Karen would forget what I look like! >>You're complaining, my connection is typically 16k/sec! I just pounce on >>the "close" button as soon as it appears :) Jeez, and Iıve been grousing about 33.4 here. Iıll keep my mouth shut! >>I had a chuckle at the report on the Subic run, with the dinner at a >>resturant (I guess) called ³Meat Plus². Sounds like my kind of place! >Standing joke is, after you eat one of their massive steaks, you don't need an >LSD! Then I WILL have to find an excuse to check the place out! >Here's an anecdote. Some of the club guys joined a timed hill climb event >organized by the local sports car club (different makes) who kind of >regard the >Miata as "not a real sports car", because it doesn't cost an arm and a >leg. The >guys ate too much during lunch break, sat around to digest, missed the >briefing, >and arrived almost too late, then got 4 out of 5 trophies! We came, We >ate, We >conquered -all with the 90hp engine against other 1.6-1.8 sports cars. 2 >Sebringized guys won against other cars, 2.0L NA's. That's why we love our >Miatae in spite of the weak engine output. As I say. ³if you canıt go fast on 90hp, 900hp wonıt help². >Aside from cost, a target peak power of 90hp, (while addled by a short >schedule), and better emissions(?) what were their design goals? Aside from cost? Well, there were no other design goals. I know that sounds mercinary, but you have to recall that Mazda was really in the shitter financially when this was all going on. >Did they think they'd sell enough cheapened 1.6's in Europe to justify the >dev't >and tooling costs? Were they right? Thatıs a real tough call. I suspect the most telling indictment against the 88/90hp car was that they upped the 1.6 output in the M2 to 100+hp (I canıt recall exactly how much, since we arenıt lucky enough to get the 1.6 here in Australia). >> Different combustion chamber design, >For better emissions? Bacically, yes. >>Also,(and this has nothing to do with the head but I just remembered it) Iım >>pretty sure the block was O-ringed with the first 1.6 (an artifact from it >>coming from the turbo) and I know the block was stiffened slightly when >>it was >>modified for londgitudal mounting. Hirai-san was an absolute lunatic >>about driveline stiffness from the fan to the back cover of the third >>member. >And the 90hp engine doesn't have those stiffeners anymore? No, I donıt think so As I recall they were exclusive to the B6 Turbo (and Miata) blocks. >> Itıs just as turbo friendly as any 1995 Familia or Laser 1.6. Or even a >>1978 323. >Any links to where I can find turbo'ed examples of the above? Jason, I donıt think anybody ever turboed one. Thatıs why I used ıem as examples. Sorry to be misleading! > Which of the below mainly limits the power in the 90hp - aka, how do we >increase the power? > >intake cam >exhaust cam >intake manifold >ports >valve sizes >valve seat shape (cheaper less accurate machining?) >valve shoulder shape (cheaper less accurate machining?) >mixture isn't optimal at top end >timing isn't optimal at top end Cams and porting are probably the biggest impediments. Reducing intake restriction with something akin to the Jackson induction system would probably help too. (Hell, it MIGHT even work on an 88/90hp 1.6). Advancing the cam helps too, especially if youıve got access to decent (no, not racing) fuel. >>We had kludged a revised cold air intake system for the original 1.6 in the >>MRA ?skunk worksı (and installed it in the metallic teal ?color carı) with an >>MPV hotwire replacing the Miataıs air-mass sensor, re-plumbed the intake, >>fitted >>a fabricated header, a larger-diameter catalyst and low-restriction exhaust >>using a the resonator that was fitted to the 1977 Camaro Z28 in place of a >>muffler. We advanced the cam, ran it on premium and managed to get 152hp out >>of it. At the rear wheels. >Wow, but at what RPM? How was low end torque? Low-end was okay, not quite as snappy as the standard one, but above 2200 it just took off and walked away from the regular Miata. The redline didnıt change, though as I recall peak power came on about 600rpm higher than stock. >>Emissions performance was even better than the stock engine. >>From the combustion chamber shape and/or more accurate airflow metering >>bec. >of the hotwire sensor? We never did much of a post-mortem (Mas wanted the car - quick!), but the suspicion was that the hotwire was the biggest helper. > >>What do the Japanese do with the engine management systems that were hooked >>up to all those pulled engines? >Last I looked in one place, nobody knew where the ECUs were! I'll have to try >and look elsewhere. Mysterious, that... >>The US system hooked to the 88/90hp engine would be fun to watch. >>Even more fun to put on the emission rollers. >How about the US system hooked to a Japanese 1.6? BTW our Miatae run with >no >O2 sensor input, and no cats. I donıt know what theyıve done to the cpu in the engine management units of your cars, but the US (as well as Japanese and Australian) cars would go into ?failureı mode without input from an O2 sensor. I suspect the programmingıs lobotomised the cpuıs O2 sensor-searching bit. Help me, Landru! Help me! (Remember your first-season Star Trek episodes?) >>I'm thinking maybe I should find a Japanese 1.8 instead - but it must be >>a lot >>more difficult - I'd have to change the wiring harness. Given that Mazda was in tight financial shape, I wouldnıt be all that surprised to learn that the wiring harnesses wouldnıt be all that different between the two of the same year. >> an atmo Nissan SR20DE. Itıs such a sweet package Iım sorely tempted >>to do one up myself. >Hey you only live once! Yeah, but our priorities are for a four-seater first. Karen wants a yellow Mercedes-Benz A190. I favor an R32 Skyline GTS25 Type S four-door. Obviously some sort of negotiation in in order... >> Uh, I guess so. But at the risk of sounding a bit dense, whatıs the >>miatapower list? >Oh, check out >http://www.miatapower.net > >All these forced induction guys hang out there, and some NA guys. Mostly >customers of Bill Cardell's Flying Miata (http://www.dlralt.com). His >claim to >fame is the FM2 turbo kit, ~220hp at the wheels, 15 psi Garrett unit, BIG >intercooler, big injectors + Miatalink ECU. Iıll check it out after dinner! > Best regards, > Jason C-U. Be there. Aloha (whoops, Iım slipping into a Steve McGarret mode. Iıve got to change my diet! bwob ====================