2

<body topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0> <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0><tr> <td valign="top" height=90 BGCOLOR="#CC9900" TEXT="#080000" bgproperties="fixed" background="043005a0dwnjzk.gif"> <div> <A HREF="index.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="EDWARD WATSONS WEBWORLD"><U><B>home</B></U></A><B> | </B><FONT SIZE="5" COLOR="#FFCC66" FACE="Arial" ><B>EDWARD WATS</B><B>ON'S WEBWORLD</B></FONT></div> <div> <A HREF="id166.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 7: INTRODUCTION"><U><B>SECTION 7: INTRODUCTION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id169.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="1"><U><B>1</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><B>2</B><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id171.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="3"><U><B>3</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id172.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="4"><U><B>4</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id173.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="5"><U><B>5</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id174.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="6"><U><B>6</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id175.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="7"><U><B>7</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id176.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="8"><U><B>8</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id177.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="9"><U><B>9</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id178.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="10"><U><B>10</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id179.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="11"><U><B>11</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id180.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="12"><U><B>12</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id181.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 7: CONCLUSION"><U><B>SECTION 7: CONCLUSION</B></U></A></div> <div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td valign="top" height=390 BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#080000"> <div>  <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" ><B>[MORMONISM. The Faith of the Twenty-first Century. Section 7. Edward K. Watson. (Liahona Publications. Copyright © 2002 Edward K. Watson.) pp 19-40. MORMONISM: Section 7, Chapter 2. All rights reserved.]</B></FONT></div> <bR> <div> <U>CHAPTER 2</U></div> <bR> <div> <B>Specific Biblical Arguments by Catholic Anti-Mormons</B></div> <div> <B>Against the Apostasy</B></div> <bR> <div>      These are the biblical passages Roman Catholic apologists use against the Mormon belief in the first-century Apostasy:<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >1</FONT></div> <bR> <div>      (1) Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.</div> <bR> <div>      (2) Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.</div> <bR> <div>      (3) 1 Tim 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.</div> <bR> <div>      (4) John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.</div> <bR> <div>      (5) John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.</div> <bR> <div>      (6) John 14:16,26 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever. . . But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.</div> <bR> <div>      (7) John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.</div> <bR> <div>      (8) Matt 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rains descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock (see also Luke 6:46-49).</div> <bR> <div>      (9) 1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.</div> <div>      (10) Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house (see also Matt 12:29).</div> <bR> <div>      (11) 1 Pet 2:6-8 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.</div> <bR> <div>      (12) Rom 12:1-5; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Eph 3:4-6; 5:21-32; Col 1:18- the church is Christ's body; Eph 4:15-16- Christ is the mind and head of the church; John 15:1-8- the members enjoy a spiritual union with him; 1 John 4:4- Jesus is stronger than Satan.</div> <bR> <div>      (13) Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, which builder and maker is God.</div> <bR> <div>      (14) Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.</div> <bR> <div>      (15) Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.  Amen.</div> <bR> <div>      (16) Eph 4:15-16 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.</div> <bR> <div>      (17) 1 Cor 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.</div> <bR> <div> (18) Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort <I>you </I>that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.</div> <bR> <div> (19) Acts 1.</div> <bR> <div> (20) Rev 2-3.</div> <bR> <div> <B>(1) Matt 16:18</B> Catholic anti-Mormons will always argue against the apostasy and allege the gates of hell weren't supposed to prevail over the church.</div> <bR> <div>   Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and <I>upon this rock</I> I will build my church; and <I>the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.</I></div> <bR> <div>      Matt 16:18's “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” is identical with John 10:28-29's “no one shall pluck them out of my hand;” Rom 8:35,39's “nothing can separate us from God's love” and Heb 13:5's “for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”</div> <div>      These phrases describe an exterior force being unable to triumph against the members of the church. Can the members of the church voluntarily leave Jesus' hand or the true path? If we can voluntarily leave Jesus' hand despite no exterior power can remove us; why can't the church via its leaders voluntarily leave the true path (if Matt 16:18's “gates of hell” refers to the church) despite Satan can't force the members to sin?</div> <div>      The gates of hell (In Greek: <I>hades</I>) shall not prevail against … what? The church or the rock? No matter how some Mormons dislike it, Matt 16:18 really says the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. Our opponents think this passage disproves the Apostasy but it really doesn't since Christ's church not only exists on earth, but also exists in heaven. </div> <div> The righteous members of the Lord's church who've passed on are laboring to bring non-members into the church in the next life. Jesus was very clear that his kingdom wasn't the earthly church but the heavenly:</div> <bR> <bR> <div>   (1) Luke 22:30 [after you die] <I>That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.</I></div> <bR> <div>   (2) John 18:36 Jesus answered, <I>My kingdom is not of this world</I>: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: <I>but now is my kingdom not from hence</I>.</div> <bR> <div>      When Jesus died he went and prepared a place for his followers and organized the church among those who've passed on:</div> <bR> <div> (1) John 14:2-4<I> In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.</I></div> <bR> <div> (2) 1 Pet 3:18-22<I> For</I> <I>Christ</I> also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, <I>being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison</I>; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of<I> Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.</I></div> <bR> <div>   (3) 1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was <I>the gospel preached also to them that are dead,</I> that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. </div> <bR> <div>      Jesus' creation of his church in the abode of the dead during the three days of his death is clarified by a revelation God gave to President Joseph F. Smith in 1918 when he was reading the third and fourth chapters of First Peter:</div> <bR> <div>   (4) D&C 138:11-60 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and <I>I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.  And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just,</I> who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand. <I>They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world,</I> to declare their redemption from the bands of death. Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death,<I> the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel,</I> the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, <I>but among the righteous there was peace; And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell</I>. Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them and they sang praises unto his holy name. I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance; And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands. But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection; And I wondered at the words of Peter--wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah--and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time. And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that <I>the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them; But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. </I>And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well and the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. Thus was it made known that<I> our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.</I> Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all, And our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.  Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;  And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there. Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls; Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people; Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration; And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah--of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord--were also there. The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers. Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming. All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance, <I>For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father's kingdom and there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life. </I>And continue thence forth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him. The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work, Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world. I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God. Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. I beheld that <I>the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead. The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God</I>. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so, Amen.</div> <bR> <div>      These passages prove the church of Jesus Christ exists on earth as well as in heaven. The earthly portion was overcome temporarily (Rev 13:7) but was restored after an absence of around 1,700 years in 1830 (Rev 14:6):</div> <bR> <div>   Rev 13:7 And <I>it was given unto him (Satan) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them</I>: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.</div> <bR> <div>      Satan was given power by God to overcome the earthly church (the saints were the members). If they say God wouldn't give Satan power to destroy his church we can say yes he could. God's purposes are mysterious. He said in Isaiah 55:8-9 that his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Why did God allow Satan to oppress Job (Job 1-2)? Why would he sacrifice his own Son to pay for our sins? All of the events in mankind's existence serve to fulfill the overall plan of Heavenly Father. He allowed his earthly church to be overcome in the first century but restored it in the 19th century. </div> <div>      Roman Catholic apologists themselves aren't consistent with their interpretation of this verse. They will interpret the statement, “… the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” to have reference to the church when they encounter Mormons but will interpret it to have reference to the Rock (which they understand is Peter) when they encounter a Greek Orthodox Catholic or Russian Orthodox Catholic. </div> <div>      The gates of hell (death) shall not prevail against the church. What exactly is the power of death and how could it possibly prevail against a church?</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >  </FONT>1 Cor 15:56 <I>The sting of death is sin</I>; and the strength of sin is the law.</div> <bR> <div>      Since the main portion of the church is in heaven, naturally sin can't prevail against the church. But just as the church has tares among the wheat (Matt 13:24-33); so was the earthly portion corrupted while the heavenly remained undefiled.</div> <div>      The phrase, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” has reference to the church. If it does have reference to the rock, whatever the rock is understood to mean still validates the Mormon position (see Chapter 3). One thing is puzzling. If it did refer to the church, why didn't the early Christians ever understand it to mean such? The very first time we find such an interpretation is in 254 A.D. when Pope Stephen was disputing with Cyprian concerning the validity of baptism by heretics.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >2</FONT></div> <bR> <div> <B>(2) Matt 28:20</B> RC critics cite this passage to show that Christ's church was to remain on the earth until the end of time. If so, the apostasy didn't occur. There's a problem with this interpretation. Christ wasn't talking about his church; he was talking to his twelve apostles as verse 19 attests:</div> <bR> <div> Matt 28:19 <I>Go ye</I> therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.</div> <bR> <div> He didn't say, “My church will teach …” He will be with his apostles until the end of the world (<I>aeon</I>). This is definitely true because despite their martyrdoms in the first century, they are always with the Lord in his kingdom. In addition, the Greek word used here is <I>aion</I> or <I>aeon</I> and means a period or an age. It does not necessarily mean the physical world (<I>oikoumene</I>). </div> <div> What “age” was Jesus talking about? Was he talking about eternity or a given time period? <I>Aeon</I> in this verse is in the singular, which shows there is a definite time period involved and cannot be understood to mean “ages without end.” Where is this time period located?  Did the apostles complete their mission in proclaiming the gospel to all nations? (Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8) The early Christians in the second century firmly believed that the apostles did successfully carry out this command,<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >3</FONT> (Rom 10:18) thus showing Matt 28:20 has reference only to a certain period in the first century. Jesus Christ's atonement was accomplished in the first century, which was “the end of the age” (Heb 9:26).</div> <bR> <div> <B>(3) 1 Tim 4:1-3 </B>is a general prophecy and can be applied to Christ's early church and his church in these latter-days.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >4</FONT> Our critics use this against us in two ways, First, it mentions “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith.” They then point out the name of our church is the Church of Jesus Christ of <I>Latter-day</I> Saints and say that the apostasy was supposed to happen in the latter days, and since we are living in the latter days, the Mormons are the ones who have apostatized from the true church which is the Catholic Church. It is easy to refute this argument since the “latter-days” come before the “last days.”</div> <div> Five books that were written<I> after</I> 1 Timothy (most scholars believe this book wasn't even written by Paul) that are canonized in the New Testament mention:</div> <bR> <div>   Heb 1:2 Hath in <I>these last days</I> spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.</div> <bR> <div> 1 Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was manifest <I>in these last times </I>for you.</div> <bR> <div> 1 Jn 2:18-19 Little children, <I>it is the last time</I>: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, <I>even now are there many antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last time.</I> They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.</div> <bR> <div> Jude 1:17-18 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you <I>there should be mockers in the last time</I>, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.</div> <bR> <div> Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for <I>the time is at hand</I>.</div> <bR> <div>      It is very clear that the latter days that Paul mentioned in 1 Tim was a period in the first century and not the 19th or 21st that our critics claim because other books that were written after Paul made that statement, mention they were already living in the Last Days. </div> <div>      We are presently living in the latter-days of the earth. We still have not reached the last days of man's residence on this planet. Since the last quarter of the first century was already considered the Last Days (discussed in Chapter 1); it is obvious 1 Tim 4:1-3 is not talking about the latter days of earth thousands of years into the future, but the latter-days of the church in the first century. </div> <div>      The second part of the argument of our critics with 1 Tim 4:1-3 is the phrase, “some shall depart from the faith.” They say that this doesn't say all shall depart from the faith but some will, thus showing that there was no general apostasy.</div> <div>      Those who did not depart from the faith were killed during the persecutions and those who survived and persisted in the true faith either separated,<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >5</FONT> or were pushed out by the “orthodox” group and branded heretics during the first three centuries.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >6</FONT> Their argument that the word “some” can't mean “all” or “most” doesn't really hold water since Rom 5:15 says because of Adam “many be dead” but in reality, “all” died because of Adam.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(4) John 14:18</B> Our critics use this against us because Christ said “I will not leave you comfortless”(more accurately, orphaned). They then say that if the Mormons are right about the Apostasy, then Christ lied and left us orphaned for 1700 years.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >7</FONT> A couple of problems with this interpretation. First, if one reads the entire chapter, it is evident that Christ was talking to his apostles. He wasn't talking about the church. He will not leave the apostles orphaned. By examining John 14:18 in conjunction with verse 19, it is evident that the text substantiates such an interpretation.</div> <div>      On the assumption this passage is indeed talking about the church, what does “orphaned” mean? To be orphaned means that a person <I>permanently</I> loses his or her parents. If the church was taken away for a period of 1700 years and then restored in 1830 does that mean the church was permanently taken away or <I>temporarily?</I> The Apostasy was a <I>temporary</I> taking away of the church because it was restored; therefore, this passage cannot be used against the doctrine of an Apostasy. One isn't an “orphan” when one's parents go away for a while.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(5) John 15:16</B> This passage has Jesus mentioning he ordained the apostles to bring fruit and these fruit shall remain. Our opponents understand “fruit” to mean converts, who will remain and consequently there will never be an apostasy. </div> <div>      This is erroneous since Jesus frequently used “fruit” as a synonym for righteous deeds/good works (Matt 3:10; 7:17-19; 12:33; 13:8,23,26; Mark 4:7-8,20; Luke 3:9; 6:43-44; 8:8,14-15; 13:6-7,9; John 4:36; 12:24; 15:2,4-5,8,16). In fact, the very context of John 15:16 shows all the references to “fruits” were about “righteous deeds” not “converts”:</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> John 15:1-16 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.<I> Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. </I>Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. <I>As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine</I>; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches:<I> He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:</I> for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. <I>Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit;</I> so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.  Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,<I> that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. </I></div> <bR> <div>      If “fruit” in John 15:16 means “converts,” shouldn't all the other instances where “fruit” is found in John 15:1-16 be interpreted to mean “converts” as well? “Every member who doesn't bring [converts] is removed by God (v.2)?”  “All members who bring [converts] will see these [converts] remain in the church and as a result receives a reward of receiving whatever he asks the Father in the name of Jesus (v.16)?” Is God's blessing of answered prayer contingent upon making converts? Only successful missionaries can have their prayers answered?</div> <div>      It is obvious that the “fruit” mentioned in John 15:16 has reference to righteousness and not converts, and as a result this verse can't be used to defend the idea there wasn't an Apostasy.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(6) John 14:16,26 & (7) John 16:13 </B>are not about the church but are directed at the apostles. An examination of the entire chapters these passages are in causes this to be obvious.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(8) Matt 7:24-25/Luke 6:46-49</B> These passages mention if the followers of Jesus follow him, Satan and persecution cannot sway them because they are built upon a rock, which is Christ. These passages are not talking about the church not being overcome by Satan but are identical with John 10:27-29 & Romans 8:35-39, meaning nothing can separate us from God if we put our trust in Jesus. Not even death or Satan himself.</div> <div>      If members on the other hand, choose not to fully follow Jesus, the promise of their unity with God is abolished and they can be overcome. The members and especially leaders did the Apostasy willingly. They willfully decided to go their own way, and consequently, laid their foundation on sand, collapsing into spiritual oblivion.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(9) 1 Tim 3:15</B> This passage mentions the church is built upon the truth. It isn't about the earthly portion of the church not being able to be destroyed or overcome.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(10) Mark 3:27 and Matt 12:29</B> mention a robber cannot spoil a strong man's house unless he first ties up the strong man. A noticeable problem is these passages do not have Jesus mentioning himself as being the strong man in this parable. These passages can either refer to Jesus or to Satan and if we base it on the context, it appears that it more likely has reference to Satan instead of Jesus especially since the parallel account in Luke 11:21-22 specifically states, “but when a stronger man come” which shows Jesus considered the strong man to be Satan and he was the “stronger man,” the robber, or the thief who comes in the night (Matt 24:42-43; Luke 12:39-40; 1 Th 5:2; 2 Pet 3:10; Rev 3:3; 16:15). </div> <div>      The thinking of our critics goes as follows; “If Jesus was the strong man and Satan was the robber, Satan will have to be stronger than Jesus in order to plunder his house but since 1 Jn 4:4 says Jesus is stronger, therefore Satan cannot plunder Jesus' home.” If we understand the home to mean the church, this appears to mean that the church cannot fail. But if the home means heaven, which is the real home of Jesus, then these passages have nothing to do with the church. </div> <div>      If the home <I>does</I> refer to the church, it's still possible for the robber to plunder the house. He can only accomplish this if the strong man allows the robber to spoil his house. What? Why would the strong man do such a thing? He would do so if being robbed were part of a larger plan.</div> <div>      There are many instances where Satan seems to have won a victory over God. The first instance is in the Garden of Eden. God forbade Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit and Satan comes along and persuades the humans to disobey God. It has the appearance of Satan putting one up on God, throwing a monkey wrench in God's plan. Another instance is the crucifixion of Jesus. By all appearances, Satan won by having Jesus put to death, which should've put the end to the fledgling beginnings of Christianity. Instead, three days later Jesus comes back to life frustrating Satan. </div> <div>      It appears Jesus and Satan are playing this cosmic chess game. Jesus has everything under control. He'll make a sacrifice here and there with Satan eagerly taking the bait, which gives him the appearance of winning, but in the end, Jesus will resoundingly defeat Satan with a total and final victory. The Apostasy can be considered a sacrificed pawn by Jesus to give him a better position to defeat Satan.</div> <div>      Regardless of all this, it simply can't be denied that an honest examination of the Bible describes this “strong man” to be someone other than Jesus. Jesus is the thief who comes unexpectedly in the night. He is the “stronger man.”</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(11) 1 Pt 2:6-8 </B>says nothing about the church lasting forever. Jesus is the chief cornerstone of his church. If the earthly church initially collapsed into Apostasy, what of it? Nothing happened to the cornerstone. Nothing happened to the spiritual halve of the church. Furthermore, the cornerstone may be strong but if the beams and posts are rotten or removed, the church will still collapse. The church was subsequently rebuilt upon the same cornerstone in 1830, never to fall again.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(12) Rom 12:1-5; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Eph 3:4-6; 5:21-32; Col 1:18;</B> - The church is Christ's body. <B>Eph 4:15-16</B>- Christ is the mind and head of his church. <B>John 15:1-8</B>- the members enjoy a spiritual union with him. 1 Jn 4:4- Jesus is stronger than Satan. Catholic anti-Mormons find it inconceivable that Christ would permit his body (the church) to be destroyed under the attacks of Satan but openly acknowledge the fact that there are members (and popes) that have been immoral and heterodox.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >8</FONT> This is another way of saying there are cancerous cells in the church that are mingled with good cells (also see Matt 13:24-30,36-43). </div> <div>      These passages can't be used against the Apostasy since they have reference to the presence of righteous and wicked members in the church that will receive their fate at the end of the world (Matt 22:1-14) [incidentally, St. Augustine used Matt 13:30 as a defense of mediocrity]. The Mormon Church accepts this fact and is why we don't excommunicate members who are inactive, who don't pay tithing or follow the Word of Wisdom. However, this doesn't mean the church won't excommunicate members guilty of serious offenses like murder, incest and adultery since the church is the bride of Christ and must be kept as pure as possible (Eph 5:27). Matt 13:30 doesn't mean wicked members aren't subject to expulsion since the early Christian church excommunicated wicked members (Matt 18:15-17; Gal 5:12; 2 Th 3:6,14-15) following the Israelite attitude (Lev 20:6; Num 15:30; 19:30; Ezra 2:62). We reject Augustine's justification of mediocrity and predestination and accept Tertullian's insistence on the necessary purity of the church.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >9</FONT></div> <div>      Why is it inconceivable that a portion of Christ's body (the earthly church) will be destroyed but admit that his body became corrupted? What's to prevent the cancer cells from taking over the entire body? If Christ will allow such a scenario, would that mean he himself was defeated or was it just part of his overall strategy? Why dismiss something because it's incomprehensible? Do the Catholic anti-Mormons dismiss the suffering and death of Jesus because it's incomprehensible that God would allow his Son to suffer and die for the sins of mankind when there has to be an easier and less-painful way for the Atonement to take place? It's incomprehensible for God to let his Son suffer and die for others, but its true. </div> <bR> <div>      <B>(13) Heb 11:10 </B>mentions God made the church and it had foundations. Our critics understand this verse to mean since God made it, he will not allow it to be destroyed. What is the foundation of the church anyway? Eph 2:19-20 says it was the prophets and apostles. What happened to them? They were killed and the churches rejected the remainders. What would happen to the church if the foundation were taken away? It would collapse. Heb 11:10 cannot be used to reject the Apostasy but upon closer examination, can be used to support just the opposite.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(14) Luke 1:33</B> mentions Jesus will reign forever over the House of Jacob (Israel) and there won't be an end to his kingdom. Our opponents say this verse proves there won't be an Apostasy or else there would be an end to Christ's kingdom. </div> <div>      Has Christianity always reigned over Jacob's house? No. Jesus alone possesses the eternal kingship over Israel. Is his kingdom the earthly Church that was started in the first century?</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> Luke 22:30 <I>That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.</I></div> <bR> <div>   John 18:36 Jesus answered, <I>My kingdom is not of this world: </I>if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is <I>my kingdom not from hence.</I></div> <bR> <div>      It is very clear that Christ's kingdom wasn't the earthly church but was the heavenly church. It is the heavenly church that won't have an end. The Twelve were to go to Jesus' kingdom after their deaths where they will eat and drink and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Consequently, Luke 1:33 can't be used against the idea of the first century <I>earthly </I>church falling into Apostasy. </div> <bR> <div>      <B>(15) Eph 3:21</B> mentions God receiving glory in the church by Jesus Christ in all ages, world without end. Our critics interpret this verse to mean the church must always exist in order to fulfill the requirements of giving God glory for all time and as a result, there wasn't an apostasy.</div> <div>      This passage has reference to the heavenly portion of the church not the earthly portion since this world has an end (Heb 1:10-11; 2 Pet 3:10; Rev 20:11) whereas the heavenly portion remains intact forever. How can the earthly church fulfill this requirement when the earth is going to be destroyed? It is the heavenly world that is without end, not the earthly world. At some point there will be an end and even if there wasn't an Apostasy will cause the earthly church to be disqualified from this requirement causing it to be inapplicable to it. Consequently, Eph 3:21 isn't talking about the earthly church but the heavenly.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(16) Eph 4:15-16</B> is used by our opponents since it states that the body of Christ (church) grows and if there was an Apostasy, that growth would've been halted and eliminated. </div> <div>      Their problem when using this passage is it's taken out of context:</div> <bR> <div>   Eph 4:11-16 And <I>he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: </I>That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom<I> the whole body fitly joined together</I> and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, <I>maketh increase of the body</I> unto the edifying of itself in love.</div> <bR> <div>      The context shows the church contained the offices of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the members, spreading the gospel and for strengthening the church. These offices are different portions of the body of Christ that fit together. It is this body that grows. Since the offices of the apostles and prophets were removed from the late first century church, the earthly portion of the body was removed whereas the heavenly portion continued to grow due to the presence of the deceased apostles and prophets in heaven (the kingdom of Christ). Since the church is comprised of a heavenly and earthly portion, Eph 4:15-16 is thus ineffective against the LDS belief in the first century Apostasy.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(17) 1 Cor 3:10-11</B> mentions Paul saying, “I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.” Our RC opponents claim others were to continue the perpetuation of the church after it was originally created by the apostles and Paul, making this verse contradict the LDS idea of an Apostasy. </div> <div>      Jesus is the foundation. Of what? Was it the first century church or was it the Gospel/Truth?</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >  </FONT>Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but<I> fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; </I>And <I>are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;</I></div> <bR> <div>      Jesus wasn't the only foundation of the church, but was the chief cornerstone. In reality, the foundation of the church was the charismatic leaders of the church, the apostles and prophets. </div> <div>      Paul joined the church<I> after</I> it was already organized. He had nothing to do with its creation.  What then was the foundation he laid? <I>It can't be the church since it pre-existed his conversion.</I> It was the Truth/Gospel of Jesus Christ! Those who listen and obey the gospel message are built upon Christ who is the only source of salvation. Consequently, 1 Cor 3:10-11 can't be used against the Apostasy since it doesn't even talk about the church.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(18) Jude 1:3</B> RC opponents claim the gospel of Jesus Christ is only given once to mankind, which then means the church can never fall into Apostasy. However, the context of the passage shows Jude was describing his time as the “Last Days” (<I>eschatou chronou</I>) [Jude 1:18], with a concomitant description of the abhorrent behavior occurring in his time. Thus, whatever description of the bestowal of the gospel in verse 3 is conditioned by the finality of verse 18. What then was Jude describing at the end of the first century? The end of the world or the end of the church? Either understanding is sufficient to limit verse 3 to Jude's era. Since the end of the world didn't occur in the first century, if Jude is a genuine representative of God, the only possibility is the “Last Days” referred to the end of the church.</div> <div>      What this means is verse three's description that the gospel that was delivered once to the saints is only in reference to Jude's era. It does not mean the gospel will continue on the earth forever, beyond the last day or “last time” of Jude's era. Besides, even if it did, the gospel is different from the church. It is entirely possible the gospel will never be taken from the earth because of the continued presence of selected holy individuals like John and the Three Nephites but the earthly church, will all its institutions and status as Christ's Bride, no longer exists.</div> <div>  </div> <div>      <B>(19) Acts 1</B> One argument I encountered was the first chapter of Acts. When Judas died, the remaining apostles chose a successor to complete the quorum of the twelve apostles. The office of apostles was called “bishopric”(Acts 1:20). And the argument goes, “The apostolic office was considered a bishopric which shows that the office of the bishop and the apostles are identical.” There really isn't a problem with this passage because in the Greek, the word is <I>episkope</I> and means inspector or visitation. He wasn't talking about the office of a bishop; he was giving a general term that meant inspector or one who performs visitations. “Let another man take his inspectorship.”</div> <div>      The quorum of the Twelve was supposed to remain in the church. When one apostle died, another was chosen to replace him as Acts 1 clearly shows. The apostles had every intention of perpetuating their office as long as the church remained on the earth. There is no evidence that they intended the bishops to be their successors over the church. They gathered together to choose a successor of a deceased apostle. This can be seen to have occurred as late as after 70 A.D. when the apostles and other leaders of the church gathered together to choose a successor to James.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >10</FONT> However, within the next thirty years, all of the apostles were killed except for John and the quorum of the twelve was lost due to intense persecution.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >11</FONT> The removal of the apostles dealt a devastating blow to the Christian churches because their absence left a church without divinely bestowed authority. The Christians “were forced to adjust”<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >12</FONT> and created their own structure of authority, namely, the monarchical bishop.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >13</FONT></div> <div>      It is obvious Acts 1 doesn't prove there wasn't an Apostasy.</div> <bR> <div>      <B>(20) Rev 2-3 </B>Another biblical argument I heard against the Apostasy was Revelations chapters 2-3 wherein John wrote to the seven churches in Asia and some of them received blessings from God and were told to continue to hold on to the truth. The question is asked by our critics, “If there really was an apostasy why is it that some of these churches were still functioning and were being blessed by God as late as 96 A.D.?” </div> <div>      Many scholars claim Rev 2-3 is an interpolation from a later period. Despite its suspicious nature, I will assume that it is an authentic part of the book of Revelations. </div> <div>      All of these churches received chastisements from God because of being guilty of one thing or another. The only exception was the church in Smyrna and as a result their faithful members will be thrown in jail and tried for their faith, (During this time, Domitian renewed the persecution of the Christians and if they remained true to the faith they would be tortured and killed). It appears that these churches contained the last holdouts of the true faith (Rev 3:2,4). These churches needed to repent (Rev 2:5,16; 3:3,19) and overcome the trials they were going through (Rev 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21). </div> <div>      There isn't any evidence these churches were influenced by John's letter and actually repented and returned to the true path. There isn't a follow-up letter confirming this idea. In fact, based upon 1 John, which John wrote <I>after</I> Revelations, it appears that they did not come back but became worse in their apostasy. John's writings are evidence that there really was an Apostasy going on and were just about complete during his time (Rev 2:2,4; 3:14-16; 13:7; 14:6; 1 John 2:18-19; 4:1). With the departure of John, the last foundation of the church (Eph 2:19-20) was taken away and the church was in Apostasy. </div> <bR> <div>      Another argument Catholic anti-Mormons will use is the durability of Catholicism. They will argue that there couldn't have been an Apostasy and their church has to be the true church because they've lasted for so long.</div> <div>      This argument doesn't make any sense. When has longevity proven authenticity? There are many religions that have lasted far longer than Catholicism that the Roman Catholic Church considers to be false religions such as Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. The existence of these religions disproves such an argument.</div> <div>      Why does a chess grandmaster sacrifice a valuable piece? To observers, or to non-experts of the game, such a move is incomprehensible. If they are unaware that such a move gives the grandmaster a better position in which to defeat his opponent, they will think he made a serious mistake. For those who know the capabilities of the grandmaster and understand the game, they know there is a reason behind the sacrifice. They then try to visualize the grandmaster's plan. If they see the intention of the grandmaster, they appreciate his wisdom. But if they can't visualize what's going to happen, they acknowledge their limitations but still have faith in the grandmaster that he knows what he's doing.</div> <div>      I view the Plan of Salvation as God having a cosmic chess game against Satan. God made a sacrifice and allowed his earthly church to go into apostasy in the first century. To us observers, such a move is incomprehensible. God however is not worried. He knows what he's doing; after all, he is the grandmaster of all grand masters. He allowed such an event in order to be in a better position to defeat Satan. Satan took God's sacrifice and consequently will lose the game quicker or more completely.</div> <bR> <div> <B>Conclusion</B></div> <bR> <div>      God, via the Holy Ghost continued to enlighten and interact with men during the period of the earthly church's apostasy but this was on an individual basis, especially to those sincere and righteous Christians, not to any church institution since the authority and structural priesthood was absent from the earth.</div> <div>      We must remember <B>failure only occurs when the intended goal isn't accomplished</B>. Just because we may view the disappearance of the church as undesirable doesn't make the disappearance a failure in God's eyes. I don't know why God would allow it to happen, since to me, it seems foolish. Nonetheless, I am not God and his ways are infinitely higher than my understanding. I just trust him that he knows what he's doing.</div> <bR> <div>      This chapter has shown that despite there are numerous passages Catholic apologists use denying the Apostasy; there isn't a single passage that sustains critical examination. It is obvious that there isn't a single passage in the Bible that denies the Apostasy of the first century church.</div> <bR> <div> <B>[ENDNOTES]:</B></div> <bR> <div> 1.Nearly all of these biblical quotations were taken from an anti-Mormon article written by Patrick Madrid (THIS ROCK, March 1992 pp.7-12) who was the former vice-president of development for the Roman Catholic apologetic organization, <I>Catholic Answers</I> based in San Diego, California.</div> <div> 2.THE POPES (Walsh). p.33.</div> <div> 3.MORMONISM AND EARLY CHRISTIANITY (Nibley). pp.289-290; THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (Gibbons). 1:433; THE EXPANSION OF CHRISTIANITY (Harnack). 1:438-439; THE SEE OF PETER (Shotwell & Loomis). p.286, f.3; EARLY CHRISTIANITY (Hazlett). p.69.</div> <div> 4 Notice how accurate 1 tim 4:2 is in describing those who apostatized from LDS church and now fight against it. Anyone familiar with real Mormon doctrine and who has read books or seen videos produced by ex-Mormons attacking the LDS church can see how accurate this description is of them.</div> <div> 5.PAGANS AND CHRISTIANS (Fox). pp.280,590.</div> <div> 6.ADAM, EVE, AND THE SERPENT (Pagels). p.150; PAGANS AND CHRISTIANS (Fox). pp.419,656,675.</div> <div> 7.THIS ROCK. <I>The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization.</I> March 1992.(Madrid). p.10.</div> <div> 8.THIS ROCK. (Madrid). March 1992. p.10. </div> <div> 9.Tertullian. <I>On Modesty</I>. Chapter 18.</div> <div> 10.Eusebius. <I>Eccl. Hist</I>. Book 3, Chapter 11.</div> <div> 11.Eusebius.<I> Eccl. Hist</I>. Book 3, Chapter 5.</div> <div> 12.THOSE INCREDIBLE CHRISTIANS (Schonfield). p.122.</div> <div> 13.SAINTS AND SINNERS IN THE EARLY CHURCH (Frend). p.35; THE CHURCH (Jay). pp.48-49; THE PAPACY (Schimmelpfennig). p.2; WHO WAS THE FIRST BISHOP OF ROME? (Shortt). p.139.</div> <bR> <div> <A HREF="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca" TARGET="_top" TITLE="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca"><U>e-mail me!</U></A></div> <bR> </td> </tr></table></body>