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<body topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0> <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0><tr> <td valign="top" height=90 BGCOLOR="#CC9900" TEXT="#080000" bgproperties="fixed" background="043005a0dwnjzk.gif"> <div> <A HREF="index.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="EDWARD WATSONS WEBWORLD"><U><B>home</B></U></A><B> | </B><FONT SIZE="5" COLOR="#FFCC66" FACE="Arial" ><B>EDWARD WATS</B><B>ON'S WEBWORLD</B></FONT></div> <div> <A HREF="id61.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 1 INTRODUCTION"><U><B>SECTION 1 INTRODUCTION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id62.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="1"><U><B>1</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id66.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="2"><U><B>2</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id67.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="3"><U><B>3</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id68.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="4"><U><B>4</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id55.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="5"><U><B>5</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id69.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="6"><U><B>6</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id59.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="7"><U><B>7</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id71.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="8"><U><B>8</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><B>9</B><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id60.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="10"><U><B>10</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id73.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="11"><U><B>11</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id74.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="12"><U><B>12</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id75.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="13"><U><B>13</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id76.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="14"><U><B>14</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id77.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="15"><U><B>15</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id78.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="16"><U><B>16</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id79.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="17"><U><B>17</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id80.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="18"><U><B>18</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id81.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="APPENDIX"><U><B>APPENDIX</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id82.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 1: CONCLUSION"><U><B>SECTION 1: CONCLUSION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id65.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="ABBREVIATIONS"><U><B>ABBREVIATIONS</B></U></A></div> <div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td valign="top" height=390 BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#080000"> <div> <B>[MORMONISM. The Faith of the Twenty-first Century. Volume 1. Edward K. Watson. (Liahona Publications. Copyright © 1998 Edward K. Watson.) pp. 106-109. MORMONISM: Section 1, Chapter 9. All rights reserved.]</B></div> <bR> <div> <U>CHAPTER 9</U></div> <bR> <div> <B>Is God Unlimited and </B> <B>Infinite? Is God Unlimited and  Infinite? </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>A) Is God unlimited?</B> </div> <bR> <div>      Our opponents argue that claiming God has a physical body limits him and causes him to be less than what he is. They claim if he is “limited” to a physical anthropomorphic body, he is no longer perfect and isn't God.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" >  </FONT>(a) Col<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:19 For it pleased the Father that<I> in him should all fulness dwell.</I></div> <bR> <div>   (b) Col<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 2:9-10 For<I> in him dwelleth all the fulness</I> of the Godhead <I>bodily. And ye are complete in him</I>, which is the head of all principality and power.</div> <bR> <div>      Col  1:19 & Col  2:9 mention Jesus having the fulness of divinity while in a physical body.  Was he “limited”? Yes and no. Jesus was only limited in the sense his literal physical body normally occupied one place at one time. He isn't bound to such a location (unlike us mortals) due to his ability of being able to go anywhere. He has the ability to be in more than one place at any given time or else such a prohibition places limits on his power. <I>He doesn't need to be ontologically omnipresent due to having a </I> <I>functional omnipresence which includes an omnipresent omnipotence and an omnipresent omniscience.</I> Jesus is fully God and is equal with the Father while having a glorified immortal, physical body. If Jesus can be fully “God” and “unlimited;” why can't Heavenly Father? </div> <div>      In logic, whenever one applies characteristics to anything, one limits it. Is God good? If so, he can't be evil and is limited to the characteristic of being good as opposed to being evil. Is God brilliant? If so, he can't be ignorant and is limited. Is God all-powerful? If so, he can't be impotent and is limited. Is God loving? If so, he can't be unloving and is limited to only one of these contrasting characteristics. The moment one <I>describes</I> God, one limits him to that description. God the Father having a glorified immortal physical body doesn't cause him to be any less perfect or any less powerful. Jesus isn't inferior to the Father just because he has a physical body. Why then insist having a physical body confers inferiority to God? </div> <bR> <div> <B>B) Is God </B> <B>infinite?</B> </div> <bR> <div>      “Infinite” can mean (1) “indeterminate” like an endless number (e.g., the last decimal number of pi or the last number of 1/3 of 1), (2) “indefinite” (e.g., beginning or end of a sphere or the last second of an open universe) or (3) “complete / perfect.” Things that are incapable of improvement (e.g., the knowledge of God, the mercy and love of God).<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >1</FONT></div> <bR> <div>      The word can only be found in three places in the AV:</div> <bR> <div>   1) Job <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>22:5 Is not thy wickedness great? and <I>thine iniquities infinite</I>?</div> <bR> <div>      Eliphaz told Job his iniquities were infinite [“<I>qets</I>”] (7093).<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >2</FONT></div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >  </FONT>2) Ps <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>147:5 <I>Great is our Lord,</I> and of great power: <I>his understanding is infinite.</I></div> <bR> <div>      God's understanding is infinite [“<I>micpar</I>”] (4557).<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >3</FONT></div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" >  </FONT>3) Nah<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 3:9 <I>Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite</I>; Put and Lubim were thy helpers. </div> <bR> <div>      The strength of Ethiopia and Egypt were infinite [“<I>qatseh</I>”] (7097).<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >4</FONT></div> <bR> <div>      The Hebrew words in these three passages are linked to another Hebrew word, “<I>`ayin</I>” (369) which means “to be nothing, not exist.”<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >5</FONT> The only time “ infinite” is used in reference to God is in Ps  147:5 which doesn't use it in regards to his nature but to his understanding. In reality, these Hebrew words don't convey “infinity” and are used many times for things that aren't infinite.</div> <div>      On the other hand, we Latter-day Saints agree with the idea of God's infinity despite it can't be found in the Bible since our Latter-day Scriptures repeatedly mention it:</div> <bR> <div>   a) 2 Ne<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord--having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought <I>by his infinite goodness</I> into this precious land of promise--behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.</div> <bR> <div>      The  infinite goodness of God.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" >  </FONT>b) 2 Ne<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 9:7 Wherefore, <I>it must needs be an infinite atonement--save it should be an infinite atonement</I> this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.</div> <bR> <div>   c) 2 Ne <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>25:16 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in <I>Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind</I>--and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things. </div> <bR> <div>   d) Alma <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>34:10,12,14 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but<I> it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice</I> ... But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore <I>there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.</I> And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and <I>that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.</I></div> <bR> <div>      Jesus Christ performed an infinite  atonement (Heb  7:25).</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> e) Mosi<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 5:3 And we, ourselves, also, through <I>the infinite goodness of God,</I> and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things. </div> <bR> <div>   f) Hela <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>12:1 And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that <I>the Lord in his great infinite goodness </I>doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him. </div> <bR> <div>   g) Moro<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 8:3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he,<I> through his infinite goodness and grace, </I>will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.</div> <bR> <div>      God's righteousness  is infinite.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> h) Mosi <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>28:4 And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And<I> the Lord saw fit in his infinite mercy to spare them;</I> nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever.</div> <bR> <div>      God's mercy is  infinite.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> i) D&C <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>20:17 By these things <I>we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal,</I> from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;</div> <bR> <div>   j) D&C <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>20:28 Which<I> Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end</I>. Amen.</div> <bR> <div>      God is  infinite.</div> <bR> <div>      I find it interesting that the Latter-day Scriptures explicitly mention God, and all three members of the Godhead as being in finite whereas the Bible doesn't mention God is infinite. Despite the word is absent in the Bible (in relation to God's nature), it is used as a descriptive term in reference to God. </div> <div>      The problem is the fact that since the Bible never uses the word in reference to God's nature, any insistence by our opponents on using the word “infinite” against the Mormon concept of deity is untenable. All a Mormon needs to do to an opponent who claims “God is infinite” is ask where in the Bible is the word used in reference to God's nature. Our advantage is the fact that the Latter-day Scriptures clearly refer to God as “infinite” even though it doesn't define what “infinite” means. At least D&C  20:17,28 calls God infinite but where in the Bible does it say God is infinite and define what infinite means? </div> <div>      The terms: First/Last; Alpha/Omega; everlasting to everlasting; eternal; etc. don't necessarily mean infinity and when our opponents are asked to define “infinite” will invariably use philosophical ideas derived from Greek Philosophy. How do they know “infinite” must be defined in such a manner when it is absent in the Bible? How can they disprove our view of God being infinite when it is never defined in the Bible? We merely end up with differences in interpretation which can't disprove the church.</div> <bR> <div> <B>[ENDNOTES]:</B></div> <bR> <div> 1.Adapted from TCERK. p. 557.</div> <div> 2.SECB-H. p. 104b; ABDBHL. 7093; TWOT. 2060a; BDBGHEL. pp. 893b-894a; WBDB-R. B8953.</div> <div> 3.SECB-H. p. 69a; ABDBHL. 4557; TWOT. 1540a; BDBGHEL. pp. 708b-709a; WBDB-R. B6885.</div> <div> 4.SECB-H. p. 104b; ABDBHL. 7097; TWOT. 2053a, 2053c; BDBGHEL. p. 892a-b; WBDB-R. B8930.</div> <div> 5.SECB-H. p. 11c; ABDBHL. 369; TWOT. 81; WBDB-R. B430.</div> <bR> <div> <A HREF="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca" TARGET="_top" TITLE="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca"><U>e-mail me!</U></A></div> <bR> </td> </tr></table></body>