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<body topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0> <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0><tr> <td valign="top" height=90 BGCOLOR="#CC9900" TEXT="#080000" bgproperties="fixed" background="043005a0dwnjzk.gif"> <div> <A HREF="index.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="EDWARD WATSONS WEBWORLD"><U><B>home</B></U></A><B> | </B><FONT SIZE="5" COLOR="#FFCC66" FACE="Arial" ><B>EDWARD WATS</B><B>ON'S WEBWORLD</B></FONT></div> <div> <A HREF="id61.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 1 INTRODUCTION"><U><B>SECTION 1 INTRODUCTION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id62.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="1"><U><B>1</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id66.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="2"><U><B>2</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id67.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="3"><U><B>3</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id68.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="4"><U><B>4</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id55.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="5"><U><B>5</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id69.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="6"><U><B>6</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id59.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="7"><U><B>7</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id71.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="8"><U><B>8</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id72.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="9"><U><B>9</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id60.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="10"><U><B>10</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id73.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="11"><U><B>11</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id74.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="12"><U><B>12</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><B>13</B><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id76.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="14"><U><B>14</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id77.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="15"><U><B>15</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id78.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="16"><U><B>16</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id79.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="17"><U><B>17</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id80.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="18"><U><B>18</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id81.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="APPENDIX"><U><B>APPENDIX</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id82.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 1: CONCLUSION"><U><B>SECTION 1: CONCLUSION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id65.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="ABBREVIATIONS"><U><B>ABBREVIATIONS</B></U></A></div> <div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td valign="top" height=390 BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#080000"> <div> <B>[MORMONISM. The Faith of the Twenty-first Century. Volume 1. Edward K. Watson. (Liahona Publications. Copyright © 1998 Edward K. Watson.) pp. 121-123. MORMONISM: Section 1, Chapter 13. All rights reserved.]</B></div> <bR> <div> <U>CHAPTER 13</U></div> <bR> <div> <B>Do the Terms,</B> <B> “Everlasting, Eternal, Perpetual, Forever, Etc.” Mean </B></div> <div> <B>Without Beginning or Ending? </B></div> <bR> <div>      Anti-Mormons insist that the words, “eternal, forever, perpetual, everlasting, etc.” mean “without beginning or end.” They use passages like Deut  33:27; Ps  41:13;  90:2;  93:2;  102:12,24-27;  106:48;  119:89-91; Eccl  3:14; Isa  40:28; Isa  41:4;  43:13; Dan  4:34; Mic  5:2; Hab  1:12 & 1 Tim  1:17 in arguing the non-created nature of God. The Hebrew word “<I>`ôl</I><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>~</I></FONT><I>m</I>” (5769) is the primary Hebrew word that is translated to mean “everlasting, forever, eternal, what is hidden, etc.”<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >1</FONT> but it is used many times in reference to things which aren't really eternal. The Bible itself describes certain things as being everlasting despite they had a beginning and an end:</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" > </FONT> Gen <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of <I>the everlasting hills:</I> they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.</div> <div>   Hab<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and<I> the everlasting mountains</I> were scattered,<I> the perpetual hills</I> did bow: his ways are everlasting.</div> <div>   Gen <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>17:8 And<I> I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land</I> wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan; <I>for an everlasting possession</I>; and I will be their God.</div> <div>   Gen <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>48:4 and said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and<I> I</I> will make of thee a multitude of people; and<I> will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession</I>.</div> <div>   Ex <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and <I>they shall inherit it forever</I>.</div> <div>   2 Sam<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 7:13-16,29 <I>He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever</I>. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And <I>thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever</I> ... Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou,<I> O Lord GOD, hast spoken [it]: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.</I></div> <div>   2 Sam <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>23:5 Although <I>my house </I>[be] not so with God; yet <I>he hath made with me an everlasting covenant</I>, ordered in all [things], and sure: for [this is] all my salvation, and all [my] desire, although he make [it] not to grow.</div> <div>   Eph<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, <I>world without end</I>. Amen.</div> <bR> <div>      It is indisputable that the terms “everlasting, perpetual, forever, etc.” don't automatically mean that the subject had no beginning or end and this is made even more clear when one examines the 440 times “<I>`ôl</I><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>~</I></FONT><I>m</I>” appears in the OT. The Bible refers to hills and mountains as “everlasting” and “perpetual” while also teaching that the earth had a beginning (Gen  1-2).<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >2</FONT> The Israelites are supposed to reside in Canaan forever (Gen  17:8;  48:4; Ex  32:13; etc.) but the earth is supposed to be destroyed in the future which would make such an arrangement impossible to fulfill. Despite the mountains and hills are perpetual and everlasting, they will still be destroyed when the earth passes away (Ps  102:26; Heb  1:10-11; 2 Pet  3:10-11; Rev  20:11). David's dynasty was supposed to last forever but it only lasted for a couple of centuries (and only a couple of generations for unified Israel). </div> <div>      Sure, God is an everlasting God, but as we've seen, this doesn't mean he didn't have a beginning from a multiverse point of view. He would be  endless in relation to time within this universe (Mos  1:3) just as Jesu s is (Mosi  3:5; D&C  19:4;  39:1;  76:4; Mos  6:67). Words like “eternity,” “everlasting,” etc. are descriptions of time, which didn't exist before the Big Bang. Consequently, anything that existed before the Big Bang can be considered eternal and anything that exists within our universe (which is limited) is within an “eternity” based on time (which had a beginning and will eventually end). </div> <div>      The word, “eternity” or “eternal” is of necessity a state of mind since we can't conceive a cessation of time.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >3</FONT> We can also understand “eternity” to mean an “eon” or a very long duration of time instead of “without end,”<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >4</FONT> since any assumption these words mean “infinity,” is simply an assumption on our part. It very well may be, but we just can't assume it is so.</div> <bR> <div> <B>Can we find the terms withoutbeginning/withoutend in the Scriptures?</B> </div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" > </FONT>1) Alma <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>13:7-9 <I>This high priesthood being after the order of his Son</I>, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words<I>, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity</I>, according to his foreknowledge of all things- Now they were ordained after this manner--being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood,<I> is without beginning or end-</I> Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of <I>the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years</I>, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.</div> <div> <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 2) D&C <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>84:17 Which<I> priesthood continueth </I>in the church of God in all generations, <I>and is without beginning of days or end of years.</I></div> <bR> <div>      The High  Priesthood or what we call the Melchizedek Priesthood and Jesus Christ are “without beginning or end.” </div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" > </FONT> 3) D&C <FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>78:16 Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of<I> the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.</I> </div> <bR> <div>      Jesus Christ  is without beginning or end.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT><FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>4) Mos<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:3 And <I>God </I>spake unto Moses, saying: Behold,<I> I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?</I></div> <bR> <div>       God is without beginning or end. He is endless.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" > </FONT>5) Mos<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 6:67 And <I>thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.</I></div> <bR> <div>      Adam was made after the order of him who didn't have a beginning or end.</div> <bR> <div> <FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="BernhardMod BT" >  </FONT>6) Abr<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, <I>yet these two spirits,</I> notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, <I>have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after,</I> for they are gnolaum, or eternal. </div> <bR> <div>      Intelligences, the central core of our spirits are eternal. They have no beginning or end.</div> <bR> <div>      The Bible doesn't mention anything as being “without beginning” (but does mention some things which won't have an end - Deut  32:40; Ps  102:27;  135:13; Eccl  4:8,16;  12:12; Isa  9:7;  45:17; Luke  1:33 and Eph  3:21. Also see 1 Ne  14:3;  15:30; 2 Ne  2:22;  9:16;  19:7;  Morm  7:7; D&C  19:6;  20:28;  29:33;  76:112;  88:66;  132:20; Mos  1:4,38;  7:31), except for Melchizedek in Heb 7:3, but this probably says there isn't a record of Melchizedek's ancestry.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >5</FONT> The Priesthood named after Melchizedek, not the person is “without beginning.” The Latter-day Scriptures only mention God, Jesus, our intelligence and the Holy Priesthood as being without beginning and without end. </div> <div>      How can a thing or being have a beginning and not have a beginning? Depends on the area being examined.</div> <bR> <div> <B>[ENDNOTES]:</B></div> <bR> <div> 1.SECB-H. p. 86b; ABDBHL. p. 5769; TWOT. 1631a; BDBGHEL. pp. 761b-763a; NIDNTT. 3:827-829.</div> <div> 2.TCERK. p. 396 `We speak of “the eternal hills,” knowing full well that they are not strictly eternal, but, while the poetic mood prevails, feeling pity or resentment for the philistine soul who would dare to mention that prosaic fact.' </div> <div> 3.SMM. pp. 57-58.</div> <div> 4.TWOT. 1631a `[<I>`ôl</I><FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>~</I></FONT><I>m</I> usages] generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past ... [references 19 instances] None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living ... That neither the Hebrew [<I>`ôl</I><FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>~</I></FONT><I>m</I>] nor the Greek word [<I>ai</I><FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>Ç</I></FONT><I>n</I>] in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the word, not merely saying “forever,” but “forever and ever.”' DB. pp. 247-248 “The philosophical concept of eternity is not clearly expressed in either OT or NT. The Hb <I>`ôlam</I> and the Gk <I>ai</I><FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>Ç</I></FONT><I>n</I> both signify primarily an indefinitely extended period of time, beyond the lifetime of a single person.”</div> <div> 5.The word “<I>apat</I><FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP MultinationalA Roman" ><I>Ç</I></FONT><I>r</I>” [<FONT SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000" FACE="WP Greek Century" ><I>•BVJTD</I></FONT>] (540/574) “without father” is normally understood to mean “without any recorded genealogy, children who are orphaned, abandoned, estranged or born out of wedlock” and may possibly mean an angelic being (but this is highly improbable). BAGD. p. 82; VEDBW-NT. p. 229; GELNT-SD. 10.15; FALGNT. 570; CGEDNT. 625.</div> <bR> <div> <A HREF="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca" TARGET="_top" TITLE="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca"><U>e-mail me!</U></A></div> <bR> </td> </tr></table></body>