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<body topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0> <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0><tr> <td valign="top" height=90 BGCOLOR="#CC9900" TEXT="#080000" bgproperties="fixed" background="043005a0dwnjzk.gif"> <div> <A HREF="index.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="EDWARD WATSONS WEBWORLD"><U><B>home</B></U></A><B> | </B><FONT SIZE="5" COLOR="#FFCC66" FACE="Arial" ><B>EDWARD WATS</B><B>ON'S WEBWORLD</B></FONT></div> <div> <A HREF="id83.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 2: INTRODUCTION"><U><B>SECTION 2: INTRODUCTION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id85.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="PART 1: DOES JESUS HAVE A PREEXISTENCE?"><U><B>PART 1: DOES JESUS HAVE A PRE-EXISTENCE?</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><B>1</B><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id87.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="PART 2: IS JESUS GOD?"><U><B>PART 2: IS JESUS "GOD"?</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id88.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="1"><U><B>1</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id89.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="2"><U><B>2</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id90.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="3"><U><B>3</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id91.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="4"><U><B>4</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id92.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="5"><U><B>5</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id93.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="6"><U><B>6</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id94.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="7"><U><B>7</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id95.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="8"><U><B>8</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id96.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="PART 2: CONCLUSION"><U><B>PART 2: CONCLUSION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id98.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="PART 3: ARE JESUS AND JEHOVAH THE SAME?"><U><B>PART 3: ARE JESUS AND JEHOVAH THE SAME?</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id99.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="1"><U><B>1</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id100.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="2"><U><B>2</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id101.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="3"><U><B>3</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id102.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="4"><U><B>4</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id103.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="5"><U><B>5</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id104.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="6"><U><B>6</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id105.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="7"><U><B>7</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id106.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="8"><U><B>8</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id107.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="PART 3: CONCLUSION"><U><B>PART 3: CONCLUSION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id108.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 2: APPENDIX"><U><B>SECTION 2: APPENDIX</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id109.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="SECTION 2: CONCLUSION"><U><B>SECTION 2: CONCLUSION</B></U></A><B>   |   </B><A HREF="id137.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="ABBREVIATIONS"><U><B>ABBREVIATIONS</B></U></A></div> <div> </div> </td> </tr><tr> <td valign="top" height=390 BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#080000"> <div> <B>[MORMONISM. The Faith of the Twenty-first Century. Volume 1. Edward K. Watson. (Liahona Publications. Copyright © 1998 Edward K. Watson.) pp. 239-243. MORMONISM: Section 2, Part 1, Chapter 1. All rights reserved.]</B></div> <bR> <div> <U>CHAPTER 1</U></div> <bR> <div> <B>Scriptural Passages That Show Jesus</B></div> <div> <B>Had a Pre-existence</B></div> <bR> <div> <B>HOLY BIBLE:</B></div> <bR> <div>      (1) Mic<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 5:2 But thou, <I>Bethlehem </I>Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet<I> out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.</I></div> <bR> <div>      (2) John<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:1-3,14 <I>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made</I> ...  And <I>the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us</I>, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of <I>the only begotten of the Father,</I>)full of grace and truth. (Rev 19:13).</div> <bR> <div>      (3) John<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 3:13,17,31 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, <I>even the son of man</I> which is in heaven ... For <I>God sent not his Son into the world </I>to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved ... He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: <I>he that cometh from heaven</I> is above all.</div> <bR> <div>      (4) John<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 6:32-35,38,41-42,50-51,58 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you <I>the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven</I>, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, <I>I am the bread of life:</I> he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst ... <I>for I came down from heaven</I>, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me ... The Jews then murmured at him, <I>because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven</I>. And they said<I>, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? ... This is the bread which cometh down from heaven,</I> that a man may eat thereof, and not die. <I>I am the living bread which came down from heaven</I>: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world ... <I>This is that bread which came down from heaven</I>: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.</div> <bR> <div>      (5) John<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 6:38,62 For <I>I came down from heaven</I>, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me ... What and if ye shall see the <I>son of man ascend up where he was before?</I></div> <bR> <div>      (6) John<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 8:23,42 And he said unto them, <I>Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world</I> ... Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for<I> I proceedeth forth and came from God</I>; neither came I of myself, but <I>he sent me</I>.</div> <bR> <div>      (7) John<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. <I>Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?</I> Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, <I>Before Abraham was, I am. </I>Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. </div> <bR> <div>      (8) John <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>12:41,49 These things said <I>Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him</I> ... For I have not spoken of myself; but <I>the Father which sent me,</I> he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.</div> <bR> <div>      (9) John <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father hath given all things into his hands, and that <I>he was come from God, and went to God.</I></div> <bR> <div>      (10) John <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>16:28 <I>I came forth from the father, and am come into the world</I>: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.</div> <bR> <div>      (11) John <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>17:5,24 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self <I>with the glory which I had with thee before the world was</I> ... Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for <I>thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.</I></div> <bR> <div>      (12) Rom<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, <I>God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,</I> and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.</div> <bR> <div>      (13) 1 Cor <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: <I>the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. </I></div> <bR> <div>      (14) Gal<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come,<I> God sent forth his Son, made of a woman</I>, made under the law.</div> <bR> <div>      (15) Eph<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that <I>he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,</I> that he might fill all things.) </div> <bR> <div>      (16) 2 Tim<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:9-10 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, <I>which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.</I></div> <bR> <div>      (17) Heb<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 9:26 For then <I>must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: </I>but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. </div> <bR> <div>      (18) 1 Pet<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as  of a lamb without blemish and without spot:<I> who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world</I>, but was manifest in these last times for you.</div> <bR> <div>      (19) 1 Jn<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:1-2 <I>THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life</I>; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us).</div> <bR> <div>      (20) 1 Jn<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 4:9,14 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that<I> God sent his only begotten Son into the world, </I>that we might live through him ... And we have seen and do testify that<I> the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. </I></div> <bR> <div> <B>LATTER-DAY SCRIPTURES:</B></div> <bR> <div>      (1) 3 Ne<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 1:12-14 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day; and behold, <I>the voice of the Lord came unto him, saying</I>: Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night the sign shall be given, and <I>on the morrow come I into the world,</I> to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets. Behold, <I>I come unto my own,</I> to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son-of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.</div> <bR> <div>      (2) 3 Ne <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>26:4-5 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil- If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life: and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in <I>Christ, who was before the world began.</I></div> <bR> <div>      (3) Eth<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 3:14-16 Behold, <I>I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people.</I> Behold,<I> I am Jesus Christ</I>. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, <I>this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit</I>; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and <I>even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh</I>.</div> <bR> <div>      (4) D&C <FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT>76:13-14 Even<I> those things which were from the beginning before the world was,</I> which were ordained of the Father, through his <I>Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning</I>; Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.</div> <bR> <div>      (5) Mos<FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" > </FONT> 4:2 But, behold, <I>my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning,</I> said unto me- Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.</div> <bR> <div>      There are other passages that can be used to prove Jesus existed before he was physically born (e.g. Heb  1:8,10-Job  38:1-4 & Isa  45:12; Heb  1:2; Eph  3:9; 1 Cor  8:6; Col  1:13-17; etc.) which show Jesus  created the universe under direction from God the Father. We will be examining them in Parts 2 & 3 of this Section.</div> <div>      What concept do the above passages support? “Jesus existed before he was physically born” or, “He was only an idea in God's mind”? People should ask themselves these questions as each passage is examined.</div> <div>      Do these particular anti-Mormons believe Jesus is a being now and forevermore or has he ceased to exist by becoming just an idea or thought in God's mind? If they insist that Jesus was a thought and didn't exist before he was physically born, they then need to also believe that Jesus ceased to exist when he went back to God after he was resurrected in order to satisfy John  6:62; John  16:28 & John  17:5 which show that <I>whatever Jesus was or had before he was born, he will become and receive after he goes back to the Father.</I></div> <div>      The result of insisting Jesus was only a thought and did not exist before he was physically born has a severe logical absurdity when carried through to its conclusion.</div> <div>      It's quite noticeable that Jesus Christ was an existing entity before he was born.<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >1</FONT> Jesus is frequently identified with the pre-existen t Wisdom [either as a personification, a being, or God's self-revelation] (Prov  1:20-33;  3:19;  8-9).<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >2</FONT> The Bible mentions that he came down from heaven and was sent by the Father to come to earth. He was also foreordained to be the Savior of mankind before the earth was created.</div> <div>      The Book of Mormon mentions (around 1 BC) that the Lord said he will be born the following day and the brother of Jared had a conversation with the pre-mortal Christ during the Towel of Babel era. It isn't necessary for me to go deeper into this topic because it's evident that according to the Scriptures, Jesus Christ really did exist before he was born.</div> <bR> <div> <B>[ENDNOTES]:</B></div> <bR> <div> 1.Also see 1 En 48:2-3,6,10; 52:4; 62:7.</div> <div> 2.Wis 6:22-11:1; Sir 1:1-23; 24:1-21; 1 En 42:1-3; 84:3; 2 En 30:8; ABD.3:402-404; 6:926-930; HCNT. 353; OTP. 1:33,62,151.</div> <bR> <div> <A HREF="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca" TARGET="_top" TITLE="mailto:ewatson@shaw.ca"><U>e-mail me!</U></A></div> <bR> </td> </tr></table></body>