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Had a funny old day. All manner of thoughts and questions strolling through my consciousness. For instance -

* If we are all "One" then who are we really loving? Ourselves? Isn't that a bit narcissistic? :)

* If we all had precisely the same depth and clarity of understanding, we'd have nothing to talk about. Thank God for diversity. :)

* How did we get these awfully bothersome egos in the first place? Not to mention all our fears and insecurities and obstacles to "transcend"?

* That word "transcend" - sounds a lot like "trance end"

* What will we all talk about if/when we're all fully enLIGHTened?

Do feel free to answer in any way you see fit.

Phoenix, I have just started reading Cave In The Snow in earnest (as opposed to opening it at 'random'). I can see why you posted such rave reviews! I thought I knew a bit about the history and practices of Tibetan Buddhism but Tenzin Palmo brings it to life in a way which is only possible when you've "been there and done that".

It's a phenomenal book on many different levels. and I'm only half way through it. Truth is indeed far stranger than fiction. One insight I did get is that we misuse the word "reincarnation". The way the Tibetans use it there is a vast difference between 'rebirth' and 'eincarnation'. Rebirth is commonplace but true reincarnation or tulku is when the stream of consciousness continues from one lifetime till the next in such a way that a person can be firmly identified as the latest incarnation of the previous lama or guru or teacher. I might not have explained that terribly well. See what happens when you use your own words. :) May post more next time.

A better question might be 'What am I being here?' or even 'Am I really being here?'. :)

Ravi, I've been transcribing some stuff from the latest issue of New Paradigm which you might care to read. This is an Australian publication that focuses on mental health issues. The writing in this edition was quite onederful. It even included a portion of one of my poems. A lot of the writing was about spirituality and 'mental illness'. I too believe many 'schizophrenics' are misdiagnosed. There's a joke that if you ask ten psychiatrists for a definition of schizophrenia, you'll get eleven different answers. :)

I also like the words of Thomas Szasz, who said "If you talk to God that's praying. If God talks to you then you have schizophrenia." Many cultures view the situation very differently and these views are well articulated in the link. The Buddhist perspective is particularly interesting. According to their view, most of us are 'mentally ill'. :)

Oh, yes, the link to New Paradigm - click hear

I would like to thank Dr. Chopra for introducing me to the Bhagavid Gita--it has changed my life.

What am I doing here?
What is spiritualism?
Vanity or Humanity?
Building an "ego" or transcending one's "self"?
I want to know: what am I doing here? I want to know where I am going.
Actually, does it really matter?
I guess it does for those who seek.
What is "seeking"?
Escapism or a determintation to find God?
Ah, what am I doing here?
Anyone has a good answer??!

And the "beat" goes on..........and on, ...............and on...........

Love 'IT'!

Geoff, excuse me for borrowing your tools. A sledgehammer was not available.

{{{Peggy}}}

control

Ravi: Did I hit a nerve? glad to see your ego is still intact, although I never doubted that...
Although you couldn't relate (while others clearly did), you did seem to echo some of what I said, following on from your statement

"Love is 'a state of giving of self to the other with utter humility without expecting even a 'thankyou' in return"

I'm sorry if I "gave" too much and, I didn't expect a thank you from you. I'll try to measure you by "one liners" in future if that is the depth you prefer. Although, Geoff's wonderful post didn't elicit the same "re-action" for its length. Is that a double standard?

Your words:

"But you do wander about painting wordy pictures. Sorry, I didn't relate to your 'short' descriptions."

This is your lesson in humility? Did you know that in the dictionary the word "humility" is next to the word "humiliate"?

And since Ego is always an exception to its own "rules" we will make an exception of your "rules" on brevity when it comes to your own verbose back-to-back posts. ;)

Coolfont would have appreciated the irony in that.

Duality abounds, Ravi. You said:

"I wanted to initiate an animated discussion where people express their own inner reality in their own way with their own 'words'."

Which actually, I did.

And your following suggestion:

"How about sticking with one-liners in one's own language and feeling."

A bit of a contradiction there, don't you think? Perhaps you want us to express ourselves in your words, with your inner reality of "conjugated kundalinis"? I'm sure everyone could relate to that.

"Can we stay 'focussed' here?"

No comment, Ravi. As for the "Tyranny of words", maybe you didn't scrutinise your own words carefully enough. When you scrutinise yourself the Tyrant will eventuallly be revealed. To the Mystic it is known as the "Saboteur Archetype".

Let me know when you can"relate" to US, instead of your self serving need to sell your Three Verbs of Being and The Lattitude Syndrome. A site I am sure we have all visited by now and I think you have failed to interpret the response to those visits.

I look forward to your next lesson. Keep up the "hard-sell".

Ravi, some of us have grown rather fond of Hadi's posts. His ideas are too profound for sound "bytes" which seem to have all the marrow sucked out of them. The description that he has given is the essence of the spiritual experience and I knew immediately upon reading it that that was missing in my own glib definition.

I don't know that I know what love is. But I know what it is NOT -- from my own experiences. It is not control.

Great posts re thoughts, opinions and 'words' in response to my query re 'love'.

Hadi, no I'm not seeking material for my next book. But you do wander about painting wordy pictures. Sorry, I didn't relate to your 'short' descriptions.

Can we stay 'focussed' here?

I wanted to initiate an animated discussion where people express their own inner reality in their own way with their own 'words'.

How about sticking with one-liners in one's own language and feeling.

e.g. Love is 'a state of giving of self to the other with utter humility without expecting even a 'thankyou' in return

Peggy, if you think of love as a dispassionate and detached 'state of being' it does take on qualities of boundlessness, freedom and permanence because it's not attached to an object, animate or otherwise.

I have tried to paint that picture in The Three Verbs of Being through the rare phenomenon of 'conjugated Kundalinis'.

I think we all are conditioned to thinking of 'love' as a feeling for an object or a person. This, IMHO is rather narrow in a philosophical sense. Some would label it 'possessiveness'.

Should there be reverence and humility in 'love'?

My hat's off to Geoff for clearly linking the existence of the 'state of love' with one's spiritual space. If one's been in a valley, can a hill be far?

Now that is rising above the "tyranny of words."
Let's say: Om om om om om om om in a seven-segmented outbreath.

Geoff,

See, when you expressed your own inner reality, what a thing of beauty you created. I had the pleasure and duty to work in a psychiatric research institute for 25 years. I attended many 'Friends of Schizophrenia' meetings where many stories like yours were told.
I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT MOST SCHIZOPHRENICS ARE MISDIAGNOZED.

In my humble opinion, most bring residuals of unresolved Kundalini from a previous organic experience. I have worked with many.

I have a specific meditation technique for you. The way you've described your present status in the forum post, it seems you've removed most of your impediments to reveal the hidden gem inside.

I truly admire your ability to think and express your reality clearly.
My hope is that forum readers will understand what you've so candidly bared.

May Om's grace uplift you to higher plateaus! Namaste

Hello friends,

I think you might enjoy this.

Just ignore the 'marketting hype' at the end.

That's not His Holiness Dalai Lama's doing.
This is what the Dalai Lama had to say on the millennium. All it takes is a few seconds to read and think over. Do not keep this message. The mantra must leave your hands within 96 hours. You will get a very pleasant surprise. This is true even if you are not superstitious.

I N S T R U C T I O N S     F O R   L I F E

1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk.

2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

3. Follow the three R's: Respect for self Respect for others and Responsibility for all your actions.

4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.

5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them

6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.

7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it.

8. Spend some time alone every day.

9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.

10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

11. Live a good, honourable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.

12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.

13. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past.

14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.

15. Be gentle with the earth.

16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.

17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.

18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.

FORWARD THIS MANTRA E-MAIL TO AT LEAST 5 PEOPLE AND YOUR LIFE WILL IMPROVE.

0-4 people: Your life will improve slightly.

5-9 people: Your life will improve to your liking.

9-14 people: You will have at least 5 surprises in the next 3 weeks.

15 people and above: Your life will improve drastically and everything you ever dreamed of will begin to take shape.

Do not keep this message. The mantra must leave your hands within 96 hours. You will get a very pleasant surprise
We are surrounded by immense beauty! And we ignore it all the time! Namaste

Awesome Geoff, totally awesome!

Ravi,

Well, you wanted "my own words", so here goes ... I scribbled these notes down at 6 AM, so apologies if they lack cohesion or clarity or resonance, but they are all mine. :)

Speaking personally, the past 18 months has been revelatory. I am now in a place I simply would never have imagined being in. I feel as if I have been woken from a bad dream. I am starting to realise that I spent most of my adult life in a very dark place. Looking back on it, it is a miracle I actually survived to tell the tale. People talk about the "long, dark night of the soul". Well, mine lasted 17 years or more - though it seemed a Hell of a lot longer, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, something has awakened in me that I quite frankly doubted was in me. To be honest, for much of my life I have doubted whether love is in fact real. Several times, I convinced myself that it was some bizarre, mutual delusion that people shared (and which I seemed unable to share). Looking around me at those who claimed to 'be in love', it never seemed to last too long or work out very well. I even came to doubt my own capacity to participate in this kind of delusional activity. Not only did love come to seem very unreal to me, the entire world and reality itself took on an unreal quality. I was diagnosed as having "schizophrenia", which is the psychiatrist's way of saying, 'we don't really know what's wrong but we'll give it a label so it looks like we do.'

So, what has awakened in me? For want of a better word, call it "love". A realisation that no matter what the superficial differences that exist in behaviour, appearance, personality, social 'status' etc, we all share the same "essence" or "spirit". I now firmly believe that without some spiritual dimension to your life, "real love" is virtually impossible. As long as people are in the palce that I was, a place of judgement and blame; a place of "shoulds" and "shoudn'ts"; a place of fear and worry; a place of materialism and skepticism; a place of resentment, reluctance and bitterness ... then a genuine experience of love is not going to happen. How I left that place and arrived at this place is still a profound mystery to me. I'm incredibly grateful it happened but it does puzzle me, as do many aspects of the human experience.

{BTW, I quoted Tenzin Palmo's words because I feel they resonate with clarity in saying that what most people call "love" is in fact "attachment" and that is why it is so fragile and volatile and rarely works out. Even if we did call it "love", it is generally highly conditional on two fronts. Firstly, along the lines of 'I'll love you as long as you do X, Y & Z for me'. Secondly, along the lines of only those people who are 'my type' or who meet certain criteria will be considered 'worthy' of my love. The rest I can safely ignore or dismiss.}

If we define "real love" as love which is experienced and given equally to everyone we encounter without hesitation or condition or reservation ... then I'd say it is safe to say there are not many among us who have (yet) manifested such a love. I now have some sense of what such a love is like and that is something I never thought I'd say. I still have a way to go before I manifest it as I can imagine it but I feel I'm on my way. I now believe that the potential for unconditional love exists in each of us. The big question is how to awaken it in more and more people. That is what Deepak and many others are writing about and working towards. The big revelation for me is that if I can go from where I was to where I now am, then nobody is beyond help no matter what you might first think. Because I was as far away from the notion of "unconditional love" as any human being could ever be.

Phew ... now I need a nap ... :)

(sometime later)

Sorry about that. Didn't mean to dampen the beautiful "stuff" being shared.

Ironically, that 120,000 fits the number of high school drop-outs last year (in New York State).

Namaste'

I was wondering what is "wrong" with this "Picture":

Foster parents are needed for 120,000 children, right now, today.

360,000 will be needed by 2002.

Thanks.

Namaste'

dear Marti - i second Peggy's words to you! and will pray for God's Grace to you and your family....

Ha! Geoff - every post i write, i always pray, that hopefully, someone can understand! i always feel honored to be in the company of the great intelect that is exhibted here!

Marti, you've come to a good place with your request. Healing has come from the thoughts and prayers and focus of forum participants many, many times. Please let us know about Gretchen's progress. And yours and Willie's too.

Hadi, you leave me wishing that I had said what you said in your last two posts. Although your comment about embracing was directed to Denis, I must admit that I have used recognize, acknowledge, accept and embrace interchangeably. My mistake!

Spot on. "Love is a verb". All this time we spend thinking about it or explaining it or talking about it ... how much time do we spend doing it ...

I would invite prayers for my daughter, Gretchen Self, who is 29 years old and has had a double bypass on June 18th of 1999 and now how going in for diagnostic angiogram for problems with her heart...And prayers for Dr. Hollowell, who will guide her through this angiogram and will interpret and correct whatever problems he sees...your prayers are needed and will be deeply appreciated...pray also for her brother and my son, Willie, whose pain is so deep...

Actually, "Who made God?" is an intereesting question. I was talking with my eight-year-old niece on the weekend and she asked "Where did the first people come from?" I said it all depends on whether you believe in a God or in evolution. She instantly asked "Well, if God exists, who made God?" I said he made himself, which was an answer she hadn't expected and it seemed to end the conversation. :) So, if you want a tricky question to ponder, try answering that in a way an 8 year old can understand ... :)

That was supposed to read as "vacant looks". :)

Well, Ravi, since we are all interconnected, then in a very real sense Tenzin's thoughts are my thoughts. :)

There is a reason some words survive 20 or 25 centuries whereas this morning's chatter over a cup-of-tea is forgotten almost as soon as they are said. In the course of a lifetime we think and say and hear and read literally billions of words. Most of them lack any real clarity or depth or insight or coherence or impact. That's why they are instantly forgettable whereas some words you hear or think or say or read become etched into your consciousness.

When you have those "Aha! That's it!" moments, then you have read or said or heard or thought something which is a universal truth. Or at least something which has taken you a little step closer to it, since I don't believe the ultimate truth can be fully expressed using a vehicle as limited as human conceptual language.

I'm sure if you went up to most people in the street and asked "What is love?" you'd get some pretty vacnat looks and most would indeed be stumped for words. Part of us knows what it is but when we try to put it into words, many of us would lack the inspiration to say anything terribly memorable. But thanks for asking. It is THE essential question of our existence. Apart from "Who am I?" ... or "Who made God?" ...

hi Ravi - no time to read but for me love is the pure energy field where no fear exists. will try to read a little later, dear One, and thank you for asking your wonderful question. Namasté

Denis: I tend to agree with you about the shadow. My concern is that there is too much emphasis from some quarters of Spiritual thinking on "embracing" one's shadow rather than recognising and acknowledging it for what it is. I think this particular emphasis of embracing our negativity is a New Age phenomenon, while the process of recognition, detached as it is, tends to be much more effective for understanding and disarming our shadow. IMO.

overnmental Awards and Recognition of Falun Dafa from China and North America Since its public introduction in May 1992, Falun Dafa has attracted over 100 million practitioners worldwide in just seven years. Falun Dafa cultivation emphasizes that one should conduct oneself according to the principle of "Truth-Compassion-Tolerance". Regardless of gender and age, regardless of nationality and race, every practitioner who persistently cultivates his/her heart and practices the exercises has benefited tremendously. Constant diligent cultivation has brought significant changes to many practitioners in both physical conditions and moral values. At the same time, Falun Dafa is gaining worldwide understanding and appreciation, especially in Asia, Australia, Europe, and North America. Listed below are some awards issued by some local governments in China,Canada and US in recognition of the extraordinary contribution made by Master Li Hong Zhi and Falun Dafa to people's mental and physical health. Just as Master Li Hong Zhi said in Chicago this June, "a practitioner takes worldly fame lightly. The award has no special meaning to myself; but to Falun Dafa, the meaning of the award is profound. It represents the understanding and recognition of Falun Dafa by human beings and society." He hopes that more kindhearted people will join the path of cultivating Falun Gong. July 15, 2000 Proclamation from the City of Deerfield Beach, Florida May 17, 2000 Congratulations from U.S. Congressman in Pennsylvania May 17, 2000 Proclamation from the House of Representatives of Pennsylvania May 13, 2000 Proclamation of World Falun Dafa Day, City of League City, Texas May 4, 2000 A Congratulation Letter from the City of Houston, Texas (5/10/00) January 9, 2000 "Falun Dafa Week" in Boone County, Missouri December 26, 1999 "Falun Dafa Week" in Columbia, Missouri November 29, 1999 "Li Hongzhi Day" and "Falun Dafa Days (Week)" in Seattle, Washington (rescinded later on due to pressure from Chinese government) November 20, 1999 Official recognition by the Mayor of San Antonio, Texas October 25, 1999 "Li Hongzhi Day" and "Falun Dafa Week" in Kearny, New Jersey October 16, 1999 "Li Hongzhi Day" in Birmingham, Alabama October 9, 1999 "Falun Dafa Day" in Middlesex County, New Jersey October 9, 1999 "Master Li Hongzhi Day" in the City of Edison, New Jersey September 18, 1999 "Falun Dafa Day" in the City of Saint Louis, Missouri September 9, 1999 More Commendation for Falun Dafa from New Jersey September 3, 1999 City of Atlanta awards Master Li "Honorary Citizen" August 16, 1999 Proclamation of "Falun Dafa Day" in Philadelphia by Mayor Edward G. Rendell August 14, 1999 "Honorary Citizenship" awarded by Maryland State Governor Parris N. Glendening (text and image) (rescinded later on due to pressure from Chinese government) August 13, 1999 "Li Hongzhi Day" in Baltimore, Maryland (rescinded later on due to pressure from Chinese government) August 9-13, 1999 Washington D.C.'s Falun Dafa Week proclaimed by Mayor Anthony A. Williams (text and image) August 8, 1999 "Li Hongzhi Day" in Jersey City, New Jersey, text file July 23, 1999 Commendation letter from Governor Gray Davis of California (text and image) July 19, 1999 Mayor Ron Gouzales of San Jose City, California welcomed Master Li (text and image) June 25, 1999 Illinois awarded Master Li Hongzhi -Appraisal letter from Illinois governor George H. Ryan -Chicago Master Li Hongzhi Day -Illinois Treasurer's Award for Outstanding Service May 22, 1999 Welcome letter from Lieutenant Governor of Ontario, Canada Welcome letter from Mayor Mel Lastman of Toronto, Canada October 12, 1996 Houston, Texas Named Master Li: "Honorary Citizen" and "Goodwill Ambassador" Proclaimed "Li Hongzhi Day" December, 1993 1993 Oriental Health Expo, Beijing, China: Master Li was honored with "The Award for Advancing Boundary Science" and "Qigong Master most acclaimed by the masses" December 27, 1993 The Honor Certificate Conferred by A Foundation under the Ministry of Public Security of China September 21, 1993 A Report on the Newspaper Published by the Ministry of Public Security of China August 31, 1993 A Thank-You Letter from A Foundation under the Ministry of Public Security of China Find More Information on Falun Dafa Editors: eng_editor@minghui.ca Web designers: webteam@minghui.ca You are welcome to copy and distribute the materials as long as you do not modify the contents. Updated at Ma

Ravi: Are you looking for new material for your next book? Perhaps the answer you were looking for was "love is a verb"?

I have a friend, Sam, who has a history of short, unfulfilled relationships. One night Sam and I got to speaking of "love". Sam, you see, believes he does love, and has loved, and knows love. He "loves" shopping, he "loves" money, he "loves" cars, he "loves" women.

I said to Sam, that for me and the Mystic, these definitions were not "love". The love for one's child is essentially different from the love of "pizza", or at least it should be. The word love is used too broadly to include many relationships we have with our world and many attachments we have within those relationships. Even the dictionary will define love as "a great attachment to and affection for" or "a passionate desire, longing, and feeling".

For me these are ego definitions. They are "desire" and "passion" which are motivated by Ego needs to possess and are attached, transient and conditional. While both desire and passion have an element of love in them, they are not love itself. Certainly the desire that cannot distinguish between the love for a pickle and the love for a lover is not the love that Jesus or Shakespeare spoke of.

The Mystic puts a great emphasis on "unconditional" love, and on "detached" love. Here the Mystic seeks to redefine the traditional understanding of love; the tribal definition of the advertising agencies, the media and romantic novels is essentially a possessive love. The Mystic is speaking of love which is both "compassion" and "empathy". Yet, the tribal definition of compassion remains as "pity".

Krishnamurti tried very hard to emphasise that compassion is not "pity", which is to feel sorry for another and thereby make that person "wretched" and "lower". He defined compassion as "empathic love".

This essentially defines the "detached" love as being rich, caring, sensitive and much as was expressed in Geoff's post quoting Tenzin Palmo. It is not cold and indifferent, nor is it whimsical, shallow or trite.

We also have the definition that "love is God" or "God is love". This definition falls into the heart of the Mystic's understanding of love. For, at the scientific root of the Mystic's belief is the understanding that love is essentially an Energy. This Energy has been identified by Buddhists as a "resonance" - a vibration. It is this resonance we feel when we desire a thing or person, and different people feel it at different intensities. Arguably, some don't feel it at all.
This resonance, this energy, this is the "Life Force" energy of the universe. It has also be known as Cosmic Energy, Universal Energy, "Aum". It is a super-intelligent energy for anyone who has experienced it through the sixth chakra.
The life giving energy of the universe is therefore the life creating energy.
It is That which gave rise to you and me and the birds and the bees and the trees. As such, this then, the Creator of life which can be sensed by the living "energetic" organisms as "love" can be rightly defined as God.

This is where the distinctions, I hope, become a little clearer. When I feel true love for my cat, a dog, the birds and the trees, I am experiencing an "empathy" of life and compassion for that life form, which is precious, delicate and magnificent. When I feel love for a car, a hamburger(?), or other inanimate things, all I am doing is energising or vitalising the "life force" energy within to achieve a simulated pleasure of "love", which remains transient and ultimately empty. Like masturbation. This is like a projection, if you excuse the pun. This kind of expression of love is possessive, motivated by the need to possess and to control the "object" of desire. It is not real love. I think a person who believes that his love for a Kebab is the same as his love of a woman, a child, a brother, or his dog should seriously examine and question his or her own beliefs. Such a person has chosen this definition because of the Ego's essential "fear" of love. This fear may be based simply on ignorance, or more likely it is based on bad experiences. Negative associations. If, for example, as a child our experiences of those we loved, our parents perhaps, if those "relationships" left negative "impressions", our "tendency" would become to avoid them by repressing or suppressing love through "denial". In the same way, if we experience a great deal of rejection in our romantic relationships we may develop a tendency not to get close or involved with others. This is not detachment. It is fear.

These become "unconscious" factors in our personality which we do not recognise or identify. We have redefined our world and our understanding according to "ego fears".

In these situations it is difficult to see past our own delusion, but believe me, if you equate the love of a woman or a man with the love of material objects you could do worse than seek professional help. I am not saying this as a put down, and ego will want to read it that way, I am saying it with compassion. You need to get in touch with your Self.

To use the argument that "All is One" in order to justify such a delusional idea that our transient ego desires are the same as "love" is pure sophistry by a clever mind. Ego will find any way it can to justify it's own perceived perfection. The contention would have to follow that we should love a cow-pat as much as we love our burger or our spouse, since to differentiate would be "conditional" and would create separation. We could go on to say that killing millions is fine because there is no such thing as death. Such arguments are clearly nonsense in the evolutionary plateaux we find ourselves in. If, however, I was still an earth-worm, I could be wrong. The cow-pat may be more desirable. As Einstein said, "it's all relative". Or was that Sylvia?

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