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I read some of the recent posts and then took the dog for a walk. It's another glorious sunny winter's day here in Melbourne. Almost too sunny - we're getting to the point where we might need to pray for rain. :) Amyway, many of my best thoughts come while walking. Usually when i have no pen or paper to write them down. :) I had the following train of thought while out walking today ... I have been reading a lot lately about mindfulness and endeavouring to live fully in the present moment. Then I wondered what our lives would be like if ALL of us took that advice to its ultimate. We might in effect be like the goldfish that were mentioned a while back at this forum. If your memory span is a total of a few seconds then it would be impossible to hold a grudge or an 'attitude' or anything for more than a few seconds. :) When you look at it, how much of our attitude towards the various people we encounter is based on their past attitudes & actions 'towards' us whether it was 'good', 'bad' or 'indifferent'? If we make the conscious effort to live completely in the present moment (which is the only reality anyway) then there would almost be no question of 'forgiveness' because past actions would become an irrelevance. That train of thought may need some work but I hope you can see where it's headed. I'm off now to lay down some new tracks. :) That reminds me of an episode of 'Yes Minister' where Sir Humphrey said something like 'Trains are neutral too but if you lay down the tracks then that is where they will go.' Namaste.
Amyway, many of my best thoughts come while walking. Usually when i have no pen or paper to write them down. :) I had the following train of thought while out walking today ... I have been reading a lot lately about mindfulness and endeavouring to live fully in the present moment. Then I wondered what our lives would be like if ALL of us took that advice to its ultimate. We might in effect be like the goldfish that were mentioned a while back at this forum. If your memory span is a total of a few seconds then it would be impossible to hold a grudge or an 'attitude' or anything for more than a few seconds. :)
When you look at it, how much of our attitude towards the various people we encounter is based on their past attitudes & actions 'towards' us whether it was 'good', 'bad' or 'indifferent'? If we make the conscious effort to live completely in the present moment (which is the only reality anyway) then there would almost be no question of 'forgiveness' because past actions would become an irrelevance.
That train of thought may need some work but I hope you can see where it's headed. I'm off now to lay down some new tracks. :)
That reminds me of an episode of 'Yes Minister' where Sir Humphrey said something like 'Trains are neutral too but if you lay down the tracks then that is where they will go.'
Namaste.
Terry, good for you for posting! How do you know if someone is an alcoholic? Chris, I think that it is beautiful that you have gone to a meeting with your girlfriend. Kereyra and D2, although I'm not "buying the farm" anytime soon (I hope), I'm putting together a tape of music for my wake. Any suggestions? Y'all are good at coming up with music on a theme. :-)
Chris, I think that it is beautiful that you have gone to a meeting with your girlfriend. Kereyra and D2, although I'm not "buying the farm" anytime soon (I hope), I'm putting together a tape of music for my wake. Any suggestions? Y'all are good at coming up with music on a theme. :-)
Peggy, I think you hit on an important key to understanding forgiveness. Often it is in giving it that we really receive it. I agree that it is pretty much impossible to forget the bad things that happen to us, but I think we both agree that we can "forget" (as in let it go) the hurt that is associated with the remembering.
Terry, I for one am glad that you are posting this stuff here. I'm learning more and more first hand about AA through my girlfriend who is 3 years clean and sober. AA saved her life. I went with her to an open meeting last week. I am very impressed with how AA works. The people who started it where wise enough to put in protection from financial and ego corruption. Through my girlfriend, I've met many alcoholics and other substance abusers. None of them have fit the stereotype.
Folks, the only reason I post what I do is to possibly help someone else.And because I admit to being an alcoholic isn't for "hey--- look at me" crap.We've all talked about how labels affect people; how being told you're stupid, or ugly, or fat, etc., can be planted in a person's psyche that will have a lasting affect on their lives. Especially when their young. As an example of early "programming", I was ten years old when a couple of AA members called on my Dad. One of them was the father of a kid I was going to school with, and I asked "why was Mr. ....... here?".Explaining that they had come to talk about AA and that he might be an alcoholic, my Dad proceeded to tell me about the people living on skid row downtown and describing in detail that they were alcoholics, but he wasn't.That's why "I" couldn't be one, wasn't going to be one, and no one was going to tell me I was.That thought in my memory. It damn near killed me.I mention this, as probably most of you would be surprised as to the membership of AA, and that only 3% of people on "skid row" are "alcoholic".I forget what year it is that 40% of our population will have "felony convictions", many of whom are non-violent, first time offenders. I'm already "seeing" these people being turned down for employment and other types of productive usefulness, which only adds to the growing dysfunction of society. "To LOVE is the greatest adventure"....Nikki Giovanni The FACT of our existence (until we die) is that everyone of us is a "pointer".All the "methods" are to "take" us some "place" in Consciousness. "We" must be compassionate, and yet conservative in our helping others. (LOL) Enough!I bow..............Namaste'
And because I admit to being an alcoholic isn't for "hey--- look at me" crap.
We've all talked about how labels affect people; how being told you're stupid, or ugly, or fat, etc., can be planted in a person's psyche that will have a lasting affect on their lives. Especially when their young.
As an example of early "programming", I was ten years old when a couple of AA members called on my Dad. One of them was the father of a kid I was going to school with, and I asked "why was Mr. ....... here?".
Explaining that they had come to talk about AA and that he might be an alcoholic, my Dad proceeded to tell me about the people living on skid row downtown and describing in detail that they were alcoholics, but he wasn't.
That's why "I" couldn't be one, wasn't going to be one, and no one was going to tell me I was.
That thought in my memory.
It damn near killed me.
I mention this, as probably most of you would be surprised as to the membership of AA, and that only 3% of people on "skid row" are "alcoholic".
I forget what year it is that 40% of our population will have "felony convictions", many of whom are non-violent, first time offenders.
I'm already "seeing" these people being turned down for employment and other types of productive usefulness, which only adds to the growing dysfunction of society.
"To LOVE is the greatest adventure"....Nikki Giovanni
The FACT of our existence (until we die) is that everyone of us is a "pointer".
All the "methods" are to "take" us some "place" in Consciousness.
"We" must be compassionate, and yet conservative in our helping others. (LOL)
Enough!
I bow..............Namaste'
"What creates problems.............is a problem"
Step 12 is "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs".There is a book out by Stephen Levine called "A Gradual Awakening" and it fits what in AA we call the "educational" process.Much like any "spiritual path", AA is a process of "un-learning". The beauty of the Program though is that a REAL alcoholic HAS to do certain things, mainly not drink, but for peace of mind, all of the Steps.Their choice is ending up in a mental institution, prison, or dead.
There is a book out by Stephen Levine called "A Gradual Awakening" and it fits what in AA we call the "educational" process.
Much like any "spiritual path", AA is a process of "un-learning". The beauty of the Program though is that a REAL alcoholic HAS to do certain things, mainly not drink, but for peace of mind, all of the Steps.
Their choice is ending up in a mental institution, prison, or dead.
For me, along with Steps 1 & 2, Step 3 happened as well. The "surrender" that "I" made resulted in what I'll call a "white out". In AA we call it a "Bill W. experience", and in Christianity you could liken it to St. Paul getting knocked off his horse. A "mind" blowing experience.Step 3 is "Made a decision to turn our will (thinking) and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him".Again, I don't know what has happened at this point of time to me.Step 2 ("Came to believe that a Power greater than my-self could restore me to sanity") sometimes needs to be pointed out along the way. Most real alcoholics have long forgotten any relationship they may have had with "God", if they ever did. The awareness of any "power" outside themselves has been forgotten pretty much. In taking Step 2 these days, most people coming in to the AA Program can relate to judges and parole officers as that "power" greater than themselves. What we try to do at this point is get them to accept some form of "power" greater than them-selves. It may be a sponsor, or the Group their attending, whatever.When I talk about taking a Step, the process is a person doesn't go to the next one until their comfortable with the Step their on.There are few that can't stop drinking ONE DAY AT A TIME, but the real struggle is curtailing the "ego" enough, long enough.
Step 3 is "Made a decision to turn our will (thinking) and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him".
Again, I don't know what has happened at this point of time to me.
Step 2 ("Came to believe that a Power greater than my-self could restore me to sanity") sometimes needs to be pointed out along the way. Most real alcoholics have long forgotten any relationship they may have had with "God", if they ever did. The awareness of any "power" outside themselves has been forgotten pretty much. In taking Step 2 these days, most people coming in to the AA Program can relate to judges and parole officers as that "power" greater than themselves. What we try to do at this point is get them to accept some form of "power" greater than them-selves. It may be a sponsor, or the Group their attending, whatever.
When I talk about taking a Step, the process is a person doesn't go to the next one until their comfortable with the Step their on.
There are few that can't stop drinking ONE DAY AT A TIME, but the real struggle is curtailing the "ego" enough, long enough.
D2 ..glad you asked, as there are many many people who are not alcoholics that can't relate to the first two steps. First of all, keep in mind that that was 21 years ago now. (For any REAL alcoholics out there)As I've mentioned before, there are over 200 organizations using the 12 Steps of AA; Gamblers Anonymous, Emotions Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, etc. AA Central Offices in New York will gladly supply the complete listing.Now as to the 1st and 2nd Steps:"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and our lives had become unmanageable". The stigma attached to being an alcoholic is so ingrained in the psyche of the country that it's practically impossible to get anyone to "look at" their being controlled by it..Simplistic I'm sure, but when anyone tried to tell me that I had a drinking "problem", or that I may be an alcoholic, I ruled it out immediately. Who the hell can't control a liquid substance. (It didn't dawn on me what I was using it for; the effect.The "unmanageable" part applies to the ego "structure" I .(with the help of other "conditioning") had created------the "image" I had of myself in my own mind of who "I" was, and my place in society. Believe me, it was all an illusion, but with success "out there" (in the world) came the idea that "I" was King of the world. With that attitude towards "you", it's not hard to understand that "failures" started happening eventually, and that's when the partying type drinking changed to "escape" type drinking. ("Escaping" from reality). No one has to take that type of drinking to where I did, but after a few trips to the hospital by EMS, and the only choice left was live or die (literally), "I" was able to give up.You've heard of hard headed Irishmen ? I really didn't know a damn thing about AA at this point, or just how much "my" life was unmanageable.I'll touch on Step 2 in another post. Sorry for the length.
As I've mentioned before, there are over 200 organizations using the 12 Steps of AA; Gamblers Anonymous, Emotions Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, etc. AA Central Offices in New York will gladly supply the complete listing.
Now as to the 1st and 2nd Steps:"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and our lives had become unmanageable". The stigma attached to being an alcoholic is so ingrained in the psyche of the country that it's practically impossible to get anyone to "look at" their being controlled by it..Simplistic I'm sure, but when anyone tried to tell me that I had a drinking "problem", or that I may be an alcoholic, I ruled it out immediately. Who the hell can't control a liquid substance. (It didn't dawn on me what I was using it for; the effect.
The "unmanageable" part applies to the ego "structure" I .(with the help of other "conditioning") had created------the "image" I had of myself in my own mind of who "I" was, and my place in society. Believe me, it was all an illusion, but with success "out there" (in the world) came the idea that "I" was King of the world.
With that attitude towards "you", it's not hard to understand that "failures" started happening eventually, and that's when the partying type drinking changed to "escape" type drinking. ("Escaping" from reality).
No one has to take that type of drinking to where I did, but after a few trips to the hospital by EMS, and the only choice left was live or die (literally), "I" was able to give up.You've heard of hard headed Irishmen ? I really didn't know a damn thing about AA at this point, or just how much "my" life was unmanageable.
I'll touch on Step 2 in another post. Sorry for the length.
Hello all. Quick greeting for you all. I've been very busy, with not enough time to come in and read everything and less for writing. Still, wanted you to know that the room is a joy to visit. Love the graphics and all. Bye.
Hadi, well said and I agree with you! I think all analogies break down if carried far enough.
I have to laugh at myself for not catching my mistake in my response to Chris. In my dream, those words were adjectives. In reality, they are, of course, verbs. And there I was scolding Ravi for doing something similar...
And there I was scolding Ravi for doing something similar...
D2, if you enjoyed the musical, you might also enjoy the French/British version with Alan Bates. I had no idea that someone had made a play from it also! Yep! Cool story! "Much madness is divinest sense." -- Emily Dickinson
Yep! Cool story!
"Much madness is divinest sense."
-- Emily Dickinson
In a well-known phrase, the Buddha said, "Hatred can never cease by hatred. Hatred can only cease by love. This is an eternal law." We can begin to transcend the cycle of aversion when we can stop seeing ourselves personally as agents of revenge. Ultimately, all beings are the owners of their own karma. If someone has caused us harm, they will suffer. If we have caused harm, we will suffer. As the Buddha said in the Dhammapada: We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with an impure mind And trouble will follow you As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart... Speak or act with a pure mind And happiness will follow you As your shadow, unshakable. Happiness and unhappiness depend on our actions. Sharon Salzberg, Lovingkindness From Buddhist quote of the moment Thanks to everyone for sharing your interpretations of the pirate. Personally, I only posted it on a momentary whim. It was actually a graphic for a 'search engine'. Have a good one.
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with an impure mind And trouble will follow you As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart... Speak or act with a pure mind And happiness will follow you As your shadow, unshakable. Happiness and unhappiness depend on our actions.
Sharon Salzberg, Lovingkindness
From Buddhist quote of the moment
Thanks to everyone for sharing your interpretations of the pirate. Personally, I only posted it on a momentary whim. It was actually a graphic for a 'search engine'.
Have a good one.
Hello to all I have been in working the whole long weekend here in BC so have had a few minutes to drop in now and again (I have no home computer). Hadi re seeing the energy - Have you checked out Kirlian photography? I am not sure if I spelled that right. Sharon
I liked your comments about AA. Sort of like chemotherapy where the treatment at times seems worse than the disease. Nice to see you pull through man. I once heard Neale Donald Walsch take unction with the first step in the 12-step program saying/admitting that "my life is out of my control" and in step 2 surrenduring to God. I'm a bit torn on that myself. Are we not all products of the choices we make ? What say you about your experiences there ?
I once heard Neale Donald Walsch take unction with the first step in the 12-step program saying/admitting that "my life is out of my control" and in step 2 surrenduring to God. I'm a bit torn on that myself. Are we not all products of the choices we make ? What say you about your experiences there ?
Insane that is until he decides to take off his military uniform and stay in the village with those from the asylum now running the village. He realizes that the really insane people are the ones doing the fighting......
Pegs, the name of the movie is "The King of Hearts". Danny Kaye plays the lead with one of the better singing solliloquies of silliness ever filmed as he tries to make sense in the village where nobody makes sense, "if a vessel with a pessel, etc.." He is named the king of hearts by the "insane" people in the village. It was turned into a wonderful Broadway play in the early 1980's with the entire village rebuilt as an incredible three-story set by Santo Loquisto. Alas, it only played three months before closing, but what memories... of both the movie and the musical. We need more risk takers in the theatre !
It was turned into a wonderful Broadway play in the early 1980's with the entire village rebuilt as an incredible three-story set by Santo Loquisto. Alas, it only played three months before closing, but what memories... of both the movie and the musical. We need more risk takers in the theatre !
I bow.............Namaste'
Basic stuff, but by doing that "process", it goes a long way in "clearing" the channel between our conscious mind and "IT"--------that place of peace that passes ALL understanding.
I also think of something someone said long ago when asked "How do we pray"?Part of His answer was "Our Father................ ...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others."
Part of His answer was
A major part of the AA Program is "cleaning up the wreckage of the past", and this involves an in depth review of one's past actions and resentments. I've often wondered if Deepak's "Wisdom Within" CD was based on that "process". With some guidance (sponsor), nine legal pages of "crap" (and I write small) turned out to be "I" was an asshole------a REAL type A.A major tenant of the Program is being honest (brutally honest) with ones-"self" (again, "conditioned consciousness"--ego) and "I" was shown how my selfishness and selfcenteredness was the "truth" of "me".None of the "baggage" I was carrying around was anyone else's responsibility but mine.It takes effort to "dig" all that crap out, and "own it".Whenever I'm working with anyone and they start judging or condemning anyone else, I just remind them to "own your shit". (it gets their attention)It is by "owning our own shit" they we gain an understanding of our-selves, but it goes a long way in us being able to forgive others for perceived slights. From our own reconciliation with the "Universe" (God) and the "Grace" received, we begin to understand all of humanity .Much like coming to understand that our parents did the best they could based on their understanding, means, and knowledge.
With some guidance (sponsor), nine legal pages of "crap" (and I write small) turned out to be "I" was an asshole------a REAL type A.
A major tenant of the Program is being honest (brutally honest) with ones-"self" (again, "conditioned consciousness"--ego) and "I" was shown how my selfishness and selfcenteredness was the "truth" of "me".
None of the "baggage" I was carrying around was anyone else's responsibility but mine.
It takes effort to "dig" all that crap out, and "own it".
Whenever I'm working with anyone and they start judging or condemning anyone else, I just remind them to "own your shit". (it gets their attention)
It is by "owning our own shit" they we gain an understanding of our-selves, but it goes a long way in us being able to forgive others for perceived slights. From our own reconciliation with the "Universe" (God) and the "Grace" received, we begin to understand all of humanity .
Much like coming to understand that our parents did the best they could based on their understanding, means, and knowledge.
Your graphic Geoff reminded me of a joke about how 3 guys go to Heaven and each gets assigned a room based on his life on earth. (something like that). Anyway, one gets assigned a room full of shit. (my language is a little more coarse than Hadi's) Sometime later St. Peter looks in on him to see how he's doing, and he's in there whistling and humming, digging like crazy, moving the crap around. St. Peter asks him why he's so happy, and he replies, "Well, with all this shit in here, there must be a pony in here somewhere".I too took it to mean digging the "crap" out of memory bank (subconscious), as the discussion had been going on about forgiveness.ONLY the ego (conditioned "conciousness") needs to forgive.
Anyway, one gets assigned a room full of shit. (my language is a little more coarse than Hadi's)
Sometime later St. Peter looks in on him to see how he's doing, and he's in there whistling and humming, digging like crazy, moving the crap around.
St. Peter asks him why he's so happy, and he replies, "Well, with all this shit in here, there must be a pony in here somewhere".
I too took it to mean digging the "crap" out of memory bank (subconscious), as the discussion had been going on about forgiveness.
ONLY the ego (conditioned "conciousness") needs to forgive.
What a beautiful morning it is in southern New England...dry, and clear....great day so spend at the beach..unfortunately, I'm at the shop...Geoff...the "Digger" is quite a guy!!! He appears to be a pirate by the way he's dressed..the way I saw it as I did a few moments of meditation; being that he is a pirate, he signifies one who has stolen from someone, buried the loot, and is frantically trying to recover what he has hidden. The question being, will he find it? He may be digging in the wrong place. One can look at hinmself and see all that he has taken from someone or himself, and has to 'dig deep within' to retrieve what 'once lost and now is found'...just an observation.Got to dash for now...take care x
Geoff...the "Digger" is quite a guy!!! He appears to be a pirate by the way he's dressed..the way I saw it as I did a few moments of meditation; being that he is a pirate, he signifies one who has stolen from someone, buried the loot, and is frantically trying to recover what he has hidden. The question being, will he find it? He may be digging in the wrong place. One can look at hinmself and see all that he has taken from someone or himself, and has to 'dig deep within' to retrieve what 'once lost and now is found'...just an observation.
Got to dash for now...take care x
Note: 'isappears' is not some obscure terminology. Simply add a 'd' to the front of the word.
G'day Hadi Actually, the way I look at that graphic, the man is digging into 'nothing' and tossing it over his shoulder where it also isappears into 'nothing'. Yet, he seems quite 'happy' doing what he's doing. :) Maybe he's digging for 'treasure', as he seems dressed as a pirate. Overall, a lot of activity for no 'result'. I use it as a meditation aid. :)
Actually, the way I look at that graphic, the man is digging into 'nothing' and tossing it over his shoulder where it also isappears into 'nothing'. Yet, he seems quite 'happy' doing what he's doing. :)
Maybe he's digging for 'treasure', as he seems dressed as a pirate. Overall, a lot of activity for no 'result'. I use it as a meditation aid. :)
I'm curious to know whether anyone here has seen energy fields?
Hi Kereyra! Hope you had a nice vacation.
Hello Geoff. Another great graphic! Shovelling sh_t or digging the dirt? Peggy, maybe if I get some time later I'll go into it more, but put simplistically, one who limits him/herself through fear, obligation etc., admires the one who appears to be a "free spirit". The follower admires the leader. Yet, the flip side is that the follower also resents a leader's popularity, coveting it, or the one who is tied to his desk can label the same free spirit as irresponsible, or unreliable, because he prides himself on his own reliability and his sense of responsibility. The very things which limit him/her. Did that make sense? I agree about your "below the surface" comments, I just thought the iceberg was a poor analogy. Firstly it is "ice" which is cold and indifferent, and secondly the seven tenths under the surface is simply more of the same. I think human beings are infinitely more interesting, colorful, creative, diverse and individual than that, above and below the surface. But you know me, I'm a champion of "individuation".
Peggy, maybe if I get some time later I'll go into it more, but put simplistically, one who limits him/herself through fear, obligation etc., admires the one who appears to be a "free spirit". The follower admires the leader. Yet, the flip side is that the follower also resents a leader's popularity, coveting it, or the one who is tied to his desk can label the same free spirit as irresponsible, or unreliable, because he prides himself on his own reliability and his sense of responsibility. The very things which limit him/her.
Did that make sense?
I agree about your "below the surface" comments, I just thought the iceberg was a poor analogy. Firstly it is "ice" which is cold and indifferent, and secondly the seven tenths under the surface is simply more of the same. I think human beings are infinitely more interesting, colorful, creative, diverse and individual than that, above and below the surface. But you know me, I'm a champion of "individuation".
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