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Speaking of faces and the spectrum of the human experience ...

Aren't you glad you 'woke' me up, Hadi ... :) I'm feeling like number ... actually, they don't have a face that quite fits how I'm feeling right now ... a gestalt of several of them ...

Tommye,

I'm glad you liked the link. You migh also like this one which sends you to a 'random' Buddhist site.

Click here

Enjoy.

Hadi,

Yes, I see the 'face' but it seem more mischievious than grumpy to me. :) Funny thing is I didn't 'see' it till you mntioned it! Hmmm ...

Actually I've been having a marvelous time just kicking back and enjoying the ebb & flow of the Forum; writing a couple of poems; reading an interesting new book by Jack Schwarz; cruising a few sites and of course Conversations with my dog.

You know, I woke up this morning and realised I have absolutely no idea. It's wonderful.

J     [

Welcome back Peggy ... or in shorthand "Number 6 to you" ... and number 5 as well ... :)

I want to Contact Mr. deepak chopra

Wow! Did you ever try catching up on three weeks worth of posts at once? Things that I've just read and which are fresh in my mind may not be so easily referenced in your memories. So rather than attempting to express all of the responses that I've been writing in my mind, I will just post an assortment of responses. Please choose the one(s)which you think best speak(s)to you...

1. You old fart! Your sweet comments to me got me all melty inside and then you have to post that stoopid stuff!

2. Almost all pessimists believe they are realists.

3. Do you feel comfortable with people who advocate genocide? the sexual use of children? slavery? I don't care so much what another person thinks but thoughts have a way of becoming actions. So I make it a point to speak up sometime between the expression of a belief which is offensive to me and the doing of the evil deed that is advocated.

4. Unclean? What do you mean when you say that menstruating women are unclean? That is a little like calling sex "bumping uglies."

5. Welcome to the forum! Your insights are appreciated!

6. Welcome back to the forum! It hasn't been the same without you!

7. Thanks for posting that "group photo" of us!

8. (Stealing a little bit from Dr. Joe and others): If someone tells you that you are a giraffe, that doesn't make you a giraffe. But if people frequently tell you that you sometimes appear to be a giraffe, consider checking your neck out in the mirror. If you don't care whether you are a giraffe or not, are you willing to give up eating leaves from the tops of trees?

9. Sometimes my mirror is too distorted. Sometimes it is broken. Sometimes I use it for a pond in my Christmas village.

10. Why did one certain lady get hugs in red and I didn't???

11. You are a depraved toad.

12. Sometimes I like toads.

13. Now why would you say that? LISTEN!!!

14. Have any of you thought of the forum as the home described by Frost? -- "Home is where when you have to go there, they have to take you in."

15. Your response was perfect -- full of wisdom, compassion and wit. I've come to expect that of you. You certainly have a way with words!

16. Oooooh! Turn up the music!

17. Thank goodness that people didn't give up when they tried to raise my consciousness about gender issues! Only people who are fully enlightened or closed-minded remain unchanged all the time by the logic and reason and passion of others.

18. I am reminded of the daughter of a friend who said, "Nobody gets her (his) shit together once and for all."

Submitted with wicked merriment...

Keep your desires turning back within and be patient. Allow the fulfillment to come to you.

Gently resist the temptation to chase your dreams out into the world.

Pursue them into your heart until they disappear into the Self, and leave them there. It may take a little self-discipline.

Be simple, be kind, stay rested.

Attend to your own inner health and happiness. Happiness radiates like the fragrance from a flower and draws all good things towards you.

Allow your love to nourish yourself as well as others.

Do not strain after your needs of life. It is sufficient to be quietly alert and aware of them. In this way life proceeds more naturally, effortlessly.

Life is here to enjoy.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - July 1990

DENIS, the universe just spoke thru you to me (stop looking, etc)as an additional reminder to "be still". This is in reference to the home I have been told that I will be moving into in October. My logical linear thinking mind is not yet aware of the geographical location...................... I had once again invested several hours pouring over real estate classifieds and other extensive real estate advertising. OK, the message may be getting thru to my "responsible mind".

GEOFF, thanks for the wonder ful site reference to the Buddha inspirational focus. The astronomical beauty was a heavenly view. How great to have some creative thinking happening to brighten up our day.

Geoff, there's a grumpy face to the right of that Galaxy core. Can you see it?

And they do it better than any of us ever could. (Running back and forth and swimming in circles, or is it the other way 'round ? - What did you think I meant ;-)

Yes Tommye, they are all wet, even the track and field folks are in the rain this evening, morning, whatever time it is !

Cathy, the above title reference was to this oft repeated discussion about the search for sex, love and enlightenment, and are they mutually exclusive domains ?

Just be prepared that when you start asking these questions of your higher self or God, the answers you get back may differ from what what YOU THINK you are seeking. I am amazed how I closed myself off to so much of the real message thinking (always a bad place to be - in the mind) I knew what it was I wanted. Stop looking, stop thinking and simply be simply.

Hello,thought I'd drop in and see what's up.Looks like the same room as when I left :) Lots of discussion about discussion, lots of opinions about opinions.I guess Hadi's Zen quote says it all:Before Enlightenment, chop wood and fetch water. After Enlightenment, chop wood and fetch water.

Now that is synchronicity ... :)

That message was # 53535 - not only a symmetrical number but composed entirely of odd numbers!

What's that old saying?

'Don't get even, get odd.'

Namaste

I'm starting to enjoy being hypnotised. :)

If a picture is worth a thousand words then here's my contribution to the Forum ...

Click on photo

J

Geoff, wake up! Stop staring at that tee vee! They run in circles or swim back and forth just to hypnotize you.

What does Dr. Chopra think abou Chealation therapy and Wilson's Syndrome (not Wilson's Disease)??

HADI--this dang email--see I couldn't tell you were being facetious! ;-) Oh well...your comments about relationships and being a Master were all things that I've considered or pondered, so were well received ;-) The Polly Berends book I mentioned is along those lines---waking up amidst the hub-bub that is family life. She belongs to the school of thought called metapsychiatry--led by Thomas Hora, whom I've mentioned before. Some of what they say, I don't know if I agree with (they have a web-site, tho it's not great-www.pagl.com)...but it was through her books that I came to see that love w/o expectation was a possibility and was more loving than relating in terms of "needs/wants"...I have much room to grow in this respect, but I've also come a long way, I think, in just letting people be who they are, and loving them anyway...of course, it gets kinda gray when you are involved with abusive people--loving from a distance perhaps being the best choice (so that you can love yourself too :-)) But as far as wanting my husband to be this or be that, say this or say that etc...I am pretty good at "setting him free" and being free from the results of such desires of him...metapsychiatry talks a lot about not relating in the usual ways because they see us not as persons/individuals---that sort of relating is illusion. They see it more as something to transcend--to see the "truth" that we are all one--and from that standpoint, one is guided to "right" action...I don't know that I'm explaining this well :-) When I first read this then new perspective, I wondered about the place of romantic love--I was already married, but I wondered if one would be drawn to people--to a someone if it weren't for the ego stuff?? I guess there are still interests or hobbies etc...that might bring people together, and love could grow--but it seems a bit drab to me---though I suppose it's because I've not yet reached the level of feeling universal love completely!!? I know not all cultures are as enamored of romantic love as the west--I have a muslim friend that told me that they don't "date" per se---just look for a good mate via mutual friends etc...she married a man she'd met once and corresponded with by phone and mail! Have a good weekend all! Cathy

Cathy, when I was speaking about Jesus not being too smart, I was being facetious. I don't even believe that Jesus died on the cross. As for Illusions, "good story".

You said:
"...most Masters (not all) seem to be beyond wanting/needing any sort of exclusive, special, one-on-one love relationship."

Although I said that it wasn't necessary to be single to become a Master, I would emphasise that all Masters, whether they are single or married, all Masters have overcome "wanting/needing any sort of exclusive, special, one-on-one love relationship." That is, even a Master in a relationship no longer has any dutiful or needy attachment to that relationship. What is it Sting sings?

If you love somebody,
set them free.

One can be free within a relationship, but it is very rare and it is something you and I have to struggle with. We can't just wish it so.

I would go on to say that a Master or a human being who has achieved Enlightenment while in a relationship has achieved something much harder, much more difficult, much more challenging, than the Master who achieved it in isolation. He has also achieved something more sustainable.

All the enlightened beings, Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Mohammed, they all went into the wilderness. They all went into isolation. The Monasteries and the mountain caves have been host to many an enlightened being. But those people always find it difficult to return to society. To re-enter the world.

Bagwhan Shree Rajneesh, also known as Osho, used to say that his aim was to "bring Enlightenment in the marketplace". He felt, like I do, that if you achieve it in the city, in the hubub of society, in the frenzy of modern life, then you can be of greater service to the world, and not only that, you can show that it can be done along with the laundry. The Laundry doesn't have to get in the way.

Before Enlightenment, chop wood and fetch water.
After Enlightenment, chop wood and fetch water.

Zen wisdom.

That said, I continue to struggle with the same problem.

TOMMYE--what you suggest is exactly what Whole Child is about!....that the life of a mother (or of anyone) presents perfect circumstances for realization of who we really are :-) I don't need to overcome things as much as awaken to the wonders that are in the seemingly "ordinary" moments of domestic life--folding huge mountains of laundry being one of them :-) I guess the dream signified what she felt at first---but it's what led her to realize differently :-) namaste! Cathy

CATHY, wherever you go, there you are....whomever we are at the moment or whatever role we are playing at the moment. So, "Who are you really?"

Do you really believe that you must overcome the "laundry"/home responsibilities of your committment to life in order to realize or demonstrate the higher/spiritual you? How about integrating those aspects for even greater wholeness?

Don't know why my quote got cut??? Trying to cut and paste it here so I don't have to type it all again :-)--- "Once I had a dream. In the dream I was to receive a diploma as a spiritual teacher or guide of some sort. There were two of us being presented with such a certificate at the time. The other was a man--Swamibabagururishiroshirabbisoandso. He wore long colorful robes and he only had to step forward and present himself with his long titles, flowing robes, and abundant credentials. But before me there stood an enormous mountain of laundry. To receive my diploma I would first have to climb over this huge heap of laundry."

TOMMYE-you talked about having to put aside significant relationships to search for our self/soul sometimes being a necessity...I agree that it makes it easier in some ways, as Hadi also mentioned, because then you have less distractions. However, after posting my wonderings to this group, I dug out some old books of mine, and found this passage from Whole Child/Whole Parent by Polly Berends: <> I highly recommend this book for those of us with children and families...it gives me cause to remember that one can become enlightened in any circumstance, if approached in the right light (heck, In How to Know God, remember the story of the holy man who awoke in a prison, as a POW?? ). I think, for me at least, it's a matter of giving up the "if only" approach :-) i.e. if only I didn't have children and a husband who is not into philosophy, I could become enlightened ;-) Darn--there goes my excuse! He he. Think I'll reread Whole Child now....well start it at least :-) Until my kids interupt-;-) Peace! Cathy

I got in early this morning and am taking advantage of the quiet. Been doing a lot of instropective work lately, obligated to a greater extense by circumstances.

Not being a babe-in-arms any more, I'm able to identify certain types of conduct that people exhibit, identify where they're at. It seems that every time I change jobs, life gives me the same test. At this point, I've developed a sort of "callus," a barrier. This probably isn't good, because if life keeps sending me the challenge, it must be that I still have something to learn there, about dealing with these people.

It wouldn't surprise me not to be making any sense; I still have to figure out what it is that I'm driving at exactly.

As for handling love for a partner and spiritual growth at the same time, could it be that it depends on the partner? In other words, if you're with someone who understands your need for finding direction, for learning, for being on the path, then it's benefitial to have a partner, regardless of his being on the same track or not.

CATHY: Some points for pondering. There are times when leaving the more significant social interactions out of our life while we are self/soul seeking is a necessity. I cannot speak for all. This is true for many, however. As long as we are putting "others" first we cannot find that inner depth which is our true self. Once we have made that great discover and realize that this is only the beginning of an earth lifetime process, then incorporating the love, joy, wisdom, peace which we have discovered into all relationships brings us into a new world of experience.

This lesson simply put to me was, "You must loose who you have been being in order to be who you really are." We do become a new being. Our interactions and relationships become different......in qualtiy, dynamics, investment, unconditional and more. I am not convinced that we must be celebate or live a solo performance to validate this discovery of the higher self. We are mind/ body/emotions/Spirit. No part can be seperated from any other part or aspect of who/what we are. All parts or aspects are interwoven. Sooo, why should this not be true of all apsects of our lives? One very wise teacher said that when we come to know our true identity we will know that "WE ARE LOVE" and in knowing this we will in turn be able to love everyone. Our choice is how to express the love that we are.

DENIS: Does that mean "they" are all wet now, too?

THOUGHTS ON MANIFESTING: Possibly the source of info a couple of years ago was Tom, in AZ (?) regarding MEDITATION tapes by SRI GURUJI PILLAI - Chant for Prosperity. Chant for Manifestation. VAAAK Sounds copyright by Baskaran Pillai. Power ful stuff. Additionally my own adaptation of Wayne Dyer's Meditation for Manifesting. Should you want to know about my method for using that one write an e-mail and I will respond.

I have recently re-addressed the theory of "pushing the river upstream" in my desire to have a B&B/healing center. My prayer ultimately became, if this is for my best and highest good, show me the way. If this isn't for my best and highest good, then take the desire away. Over the weekend I finally recognized that I didn't enjoy getting up "early" to fix my own breakfast, then why would I find joy in getting up even earlier every day of the week to make breakfast for others however interesting that might be. Back to the drawing board and idea tank of the cosmose. Just send a lot of light to those publishers, etc.

hey! D2 - still planning to come your way in April. lots going on in my life, much to embrace but some of it is hard to own, as being mine, as Cathy has said so eloquently. take care, love, and God's Grace in finding the funding you need for your venture.....

Hey K !

Found a wonderful old b-tribe CD, instrumental all done by one guy who lays down everything on separate tracks. Not as sensuous as Barry, but moves in its own way.

Hi Tommye, only peek in once a quarter or so to check the energy and temperature. Seems a bit warm and defensive but the clouds are breaking !

As for the Millenium Peace Summit stuff, you made me cry tears of sheer joy so I returned the favor to my address list.

Your memo from God on releasing and letting him sweat the details was also very apropos. We are trying to get a venture funded and if I wanted to, I could ride the emotional highs and los of the roller coasters with my partners or just accept the perfection of it all and know that if the universe is supporting it, it will happen and if not then there is something else we are supposed to do.

Somehow fighting to save a group of indpendent publishers who have no interest in saving their own business is losing its appeal ;-)

Such wonderful lessons on life though !

Hoi Carol ! We'll leave the light on for ya luv !

Sports Illustrated magazine arrives here about two weeks after publication so the Olympic preview edition talks about the dominance of the US men's swim team and Australia, while our nation is giddy over just being there and now to have both Pieter and Inga surprising everyone !!! Jonge, jonge, jonge !!!!

dear Cathy - i forget, too. :)
the Master knows we are All, One Being. therefore, He no longer needs the kind of social commitments that we lesser enlightened Beings seem to NEED....
Namasté

HERE'S THE POST I THOUGHT I'D LOST...BETTER LATE THAN NEVER? CATHY TOMMYE--Thanks for the info regarding Jesus' "other" life...interesting stuff! TO and HADI--I agree with your points---that Jesus was an enlightened/fully realized being (and Hadi, as for allowing himself to be crucified--remember Donald Shimoda's death in Illusions? You said recently "How smart was that?"), that he was pointing the way for what we each could do/be, and that we don't have to get caught up in exactly how he lived because we will each find our own way to walk the path. HADI--you restated the original thought about whether or not one had to be single to become a master--and said that you thought it wasn't necessary, but probably easier if one could be solely devoted to the Way...that was what I had been observing--that most Masters (not all) seem to be beyond wanting/needing any sort of exclusive, special, one-on-one love relationship. Yet, one-on-one relationships offer fertile ground for much awakening to many things when approached in a certain way...I have concluded (for now :-)) that as I see my Life as unfolding in the perfect way for me, I have what I need to prod me along the spiritual path in the circumstances I am in--being married with children. Indeed, I have awakened to some "big" truths/new ideas in my 15 years of marriage. Maybe one idea I am trying to come to see is that "my" way can be my own, that it need not follow a prescribed path. And I thank you all for reminding me of these things I know. This brings me to a question: to those of you involved in long-term love relationships--how do you perceive your relationship in light of how you are coming to know God? What part does it play? Namaste! Cathy

Thank you all.

CRAP! Now I'm going to have to dig out all my old books, especially those on the "White Brotherhood".

Of course it REALLY doesn't matter to my life, personal experiences, or what my "Dharma" is-----for TODAY.

I just KNOW there's a lot I DON'T know-----ha.

It's like watching a blade of grass grow, you "see" something new every moment.

CAROL--that post about us all operating on every level at once was a wonderful reminder for me! Kind of a mind boggling concept--the idea that past/present/future are all NOW...which is why, I guess it gets "forgotten" by me as I operate in my linear world ;-) And it makes the tendency to see the various levels as judgements of "progression" unnecessary (though I realize that judgement was not something you all were seeing :-))--still someone in the lower levels, operating in the typical linear timeline, and under the idea of separation from God is not gonna see that the levels are not a judgement or a ranking of sorts. Which brings me to another point about talking to each other...for myself--and I imagine, many others, my ideas are ahead of my understanding. Like the thing about time--sure, I think it might be true, I understand the reasoning behind it and support that, but it's not "real" to me. Likewise, I believe we are all divine emanations of God--in essence, ONE, but it doesn't seem "real" when I see people who seem diametrically opposed to me--don't really want to be ONE with them ;-) My point, and I do have one, is that while I might "talk" from a higher level at times, my emotional/deeper world still operates from the previous level. This may just be another way of saying what Carol said about operating at all levels at once--maybe we just float in and out of awareness of this...? An aside, Thomas Hora, whom I've mentioned before, thinks that we should seek "mental liberation from calculative and interaction thinking"...which is done by seeking to become aware of our oneness with God and continuosly allowing this awareness to make us open to moment to moment inspiration and guidance...I like this idea a bit better than the creating our own reality ideas of CWG (though I can see that they can be argued to be the same thing...semantics :-))...it seems less of a task to open ourselves up to Infinite mind than to seek to choose each moment what is the highest choice...I ramble! TO--Glad you got a cosmic chuckle :-) Your work sounds interesting! Namaste! Cathy

Click here to read a little bit about most major world religions.

Loved this quote:

"All truth passes through three stages:
first, it is ridiculed;
next it is violently attacked;
finally, it is held to be self-evident."
-- Schopenhauer

Fabulous link, Tom, thanks.

\

Now here's an interesting bit of spiritual "trivia" (for want of a better word). I just found this site, the Asencion Reasearch Center. Not only does it give a definition of the Great White Brotherhood, but it also lists Ascended Masters. I never knew that J.C. Penny, of the department store fame, was an Ascended Master of the Brotherhood.

Having my finger in too many pies right now, I dropped out of AMORC (the Rosicrucians) a year or so ago. Though I think they are a good organization, I wasn't devoting enough time to the weekly studies. I hope to start up again sometime in the future.

Click here to read their introductory pamphlet, Mastery of Life, which tells a bit about the organization. Though the organization as it is known today was founded in 1915, it is based on ancient Egyptian mysticism, having similar roots as the Knights Templar and the Masons. A search on the word "Rosicrucian" will give you a lot of unofficial websites to look at.

Terry: Who knows? My memory banks tell me that the Order of the Rosy Cross evolved in the Middle Ages,(and I don't mean when you turn 50) and the the Gnostics were early Christians who didn't sign up to the Roman contract at the Council of Nicaea which was calledby Constantine I, in many ways the founder of the Catholic church as we know it today.

Maybe Tom could shed some light on the Rosecrucians.

My understanding of the Great White Brotherhood is that it is a reference to beings on the Astral Plane who have a binding interest in human evolution. So this is not a physical or existing "Order". I think it is referred to in the Rosecrucians, Golden Dawn, and Theosophy. It may also be part of the Freemason belief system, but I have not studied that in much depth. These Brotherhoods, however, have a great deal in common in their teachings.

Namaste'.

Good posts, Cathy. You are having some inspired thoughts.

As Ram Dass says: "I guess I'll always be a second grade teacher".

Cathy, I had a "cosmic chuckle" with what you said concerning the "levels". The chuckle had to do with me and my involvement with people I'm working with, and how I present the "info".

Most haven't thought of "God" for a long time, if ever-----------and surely not how/what we share here.

I eventually get them "there" in some fashion, but I've been having more and more of a hard time keeping focused where their "at", and what "expansion" step/info is next.

Working with some "psyche" folks lately I've found it necessary to regroup, and look up some of Jung's and Frued's terminology/definitions.

With many, they can relate to "altered states of consciousness" via the artificial methods, but don't believe it's possible otherwise-----------------AND to much "work".

Namaste'

Hadi, sorry for just getting back to you about Gnostic/Roscrucians. You'll have to pardon my memory as it's been quite awhile since I was "into" all that-----timelines, etc.

If I remember right, the Gnostic's came after the Essenes were supposedly functioning, and so did the "White Brotherhood"--------which may have been another name for the Gnostic's????????? My understanding of that is that the "Gnostics" weren't really a sect, just some early Church Fathers (Origen, Augustine, etc.) that got classified as such.

As a member of the "Rose" for a period of time I honestly can't remember much of my indoctrination today.

Oh well, .........whata I know? Ahhhhhhhhh Sooooooooooooooooooooo.

hi Cathy - we all operate in all levels simultaneously. it is our awareness of the levels that might seem to set us apart. there is no higher or lower since it is all happening NOW......
i have enjoyed these discussions and hope they do not end because of thoughtless (myself included) remarks or anonymous posts....
Namasté Forum Friends

Hi all, I was about to hit the sack when something came to mind...you know all the levels Deepak talks about? Well, I think this pertains to how we should try to listen to people--if someone in level one is complaining about his life, to be helpful, you'd need a different response than if someone at a higher level had a problem---which I guess gets less likely as they get to the top few levels? :-) I don't mean this as an idea to separate people, though the whole idea of levels denotes "ranking" which, if you're at the bottom...:-) Really, it is a means to understand each other better and can thereby help you "listen" better...I think in a forum such as this, we have people who are all interested in spiritual matters but who are at various levels---and this makes for various ideas behind our words which sometimes end up rankling others who meant things in a different way...I admit that sometimes when people talk in esoteric mumbo jumbo, it is of no help to me :-) I get what they're saying, but it doesn't help in the particular at hand. I think the levels thing is helpful individually, but I think it can become a hindrance sometimes--though it's supposed to be a nonjudgemental kind of system, most people don't like to think of themselves as the "lowest" or "lower" ;-)Anyway, my point being that, as we respond to each other we should try to respect where the "other" , the part of our Self expressed in the "other" is coming from, and to meet them where they are---of course, I'm not sure exactly how to put this into practice (spiritual mumbo jumbo ;-)), but it makes good sense to me! Buenas Noches!Cathy

HADI, thanks much. I printed the info out for safe keeping and reference.

KAREN--I appreciate your show of comprehension of my perspective :-) I think all this talk is a good thing...CHRIS--I especially liked your last post. I think when people too quickly suggest that everything is simply a mirror---while that may indeed be the case sometimes--it effectively puts a sock in the person that was "complaining"...eliminates the need of the listener to truly listen..I guess each circumstance is unique---sometimes the one expressing might need to examine the sponsoring thought behind their ideas, and sometimes the whole thing might have manifested as an opportunity for the listener to practice more effective listening...I suppose listening to those we disagree with, in essence, is like accepting parts of ourselves that we don't like or understand...since we're all one? Namaste!

From my perspective and based on my ego run-ins with Hadi, the problem arises when we don't really listen, or try to understand the other person. Until we can really listen, we are not dealing with the other person; instead we are working off of the stories and ideas we create in our heads about the other person. I'm guilty of this; Hadi is guilty of this, as I'm sure most of us are. When we are only dealing with our own made up stories and creations (projecting these to other people) we are really only stuck in our own heads. It is easy to become worked up and defensive as we are really working from a lower level of consciousness that requires a lot of effort to maintain. One way to step up to a higher level of awareness is to simply honor those you interact with by really listening to them. Listening does not mean that we necessarily agree, it just means that we honor them enough to acknowledge that they ARE (kind of the essence of Nameste). The act of genuinely listening forces the ego to quiet down, and opens oneself to higher level of awareness. There is an old Zen story about filling a cup until it overflowed. We can't possibly learn and understand beyond where we are currently at until we can let go of our own ego's stories.

Hmmm. I think my response to Cathy was fine. I listened and I observed something about the exchange from which I could say I have learned. I'm continuing to do so now. Certainly Cathy seemed satisfied. But for some reason you think there's something else I should be listening to. You also seem to think that everyone else should listen to it to. That they shouldn't have minds of their own and that they should see it the way you do? They should fall in line with your overt hostility towards me. Control issues can blinside one so easily, don't you think?

I like to encourage others to think for themselves. So, is the issue that no one else thinks the same way as you, or that I am... breathing?

I certainly would like to know what the great offense is in the last few days dialogue that hasn't already been addressed. Over to you.

Karen, you are forgetting one thing. For Hadi to benefit from Cathy's good examples, he would have to take off the teacher hat and put on the student hat for a change. Problem is, I think the student hat got lost somewhere along the journey.

BTW, I'm not Nazi Mike. I'm someone who reads but rarely posts and yes, I choose to use www.anonymizer.com because, well, I can. So there.

An excellent wife asked her excellent husband to run an errand for her. "Of course, I will, my dear," replied the excellent husband. "Just remind me of it in two days' time." In two days' time, the excellent wife reminded her excellent husband of the errand. "My dear," he sighed, "why must you nag?"

Two monks belonging to a very strict Order were on their way to a nearby village to get some supplies. When they arrived at the river crossing there was a young woman waiting to cross, but there were no boats in attendance. She was in a great hurry to make her appointment so one of the Monks offered to carry her to the other side on his back.
The second monk was completely shocked by this offer since their order strictly forbade any kind fraternising with women. yet he said nothing because the first monk was his senior. Nevertheless they crossed and on the other side the First Monk deposited the woman and bid her good day. She thanked him for his kindness and the two monks moved on. They travelled some miles and although the First Monk attempted some conversation, the second remained silent and brooding. He couldn't get over the sight of the woman clinging so intimately onto his coleague, her bare legs wrapped around him. He found this reprehensible and it flew in the face of their teachings. Still he said nothing.
Eventually they reached the village and the First Monk decided to ask his fellow monk what was troubling him. The second monk told him in no uncertain words. "Is that all?" Laughed the First Monk. "I only carried her across the river, and left her there. You, on the other hand, have carried her in your mind all these miles."

I'm not the least bit afraid you'll bite! I just didn't think Cathy need be singled out and advised to reflect on how she reacted. Doesn't that apply to all of us? I mentioned you because you were the other party to that particular exchange. (BTW, I think she gave you a couple of good examples of just how you could have approached her.)

Tommye, click HERE

Karen: I've sensed a tension from you to me and it seems you are very keen to bring me down a peg or two. please do. You don't need the support of the others to express your own frustration with me, and I promise I won't bite.

Tommye: He understood Quantum, I agree. I think what I meant was, there wasn't a language for it yet. Each of the prophets could only express things in the language of their time.

I haven't done past life regression, but I feel like I've regressed this time round.

Terry: didn't the Rosicrucians evolve from Gnosticism?

"TO" one of my lessons has been when I have a quest (desire for knowledge, info, etc) and I ask the Universe, the answers will come from many sources, i.e. books in the bookstore which say, "take me home", a gift of a book or tape, e-mails, snail mail or phone calls from friends whom I haven't seen in a long time (whatever that is), new people who just appear in my space, lectures, study groups. When we ask, the Uni verse answers. Are we listening????? I do not always focus on the source, just the answer. Therefore my conscious mind does not always recall the chanel thru which the info which has been presented to me. I consider the real source to be of a higher dimension than I have yet attained with this physical vehicle considering this "physical site" is still under construction. A glorious day to you. Would someone - anyone remind me of how to "do" paragraphs and color with this site????? Please. Two years ago or maybe more, some wise lady who was participating on the forum posted the info for a resource for all to use. Since my new computer has all the buttons (keys) to push for doing these simple things, I am a loss when the need to give directions as I go is present.

hi Tommye!! :) thanks! and it is great to "see" you here!

"Nikie will do it!"

I'd believe that women are wiser if so many weren't leaning toward keeping the crap we've put up with for so long in Washington continuing.

I don't blame them though for wanting surcease to the "load" they've been carrying.

Tommye thanks for your reply.

There were some resources there I hadn't checked out, but sometime back I did go on that search.

Timelines, connections, etc. For instance, the connection (or if there was) between the "White Brotherhood" and the Essenes, and if they were one and the same. It's also suggested that the Roscrucian's are what the Essenes have evolved to today, and of course we have Twyman's writing about the group(?) he found in Europe.

Of course "IT" all revolves around the fact that if you believe it is so, then it is-------for you.

Namaste'

Just cracked my "fortune cookie" for the day (Excite.com). It read:

"A wise man listens to a wiser women"-----------LOL.

Perfect.

Yes! You expressed frustration that you weren't being understood. So why did everyone decide *you* needed to look in that mirror, but there was no wise advice to Hadi to do the same? I think we're all learners, and I've been frustrated when what I wrote wasn't comprehended in the way I meant it (and can also see when I need to be more articulate in my writing)--and I agree that is not at all the same as having one's feelings hurt. The latter is probably an assumption that that's just the way women are. :-) Yes, that's intended to be sarcastic and I don't much care if it bugs anyone. Cheers!

HADI, we are pretty much journeying on the same path of awareness in many areas of your dialogue. I do have one debate point: I think you commented that Jesus did not know about quantum physics. I protest. He did know! Right, He didn't use that specific terminology; however, He knew the dynamics of energy/light. How do you think He did the healing Miralces??? He just couldn't discuss it with the humanity at large due to their chosen limitation of consciousness. I loved your analogy of the mustard seed story. Simplification. Paint a picture in a person's mind with that which is familiar and common to him/her (safety) and then make a comparison to an idea of higher awareness and they will learn with understanding and clarity. They will remember. You did, right? The ego is excellent at complication. The Spirit/Soul is magnificant with simplification. I am not remembering all the comments over the past couple of days about the ego. Try this one on for clarity and simplification: The ego is a gift from the Creator which is an amazing tool working as a catalyst which connects us with that which we need to: I. Become aware of II. Acknowledge III. Heal within our consciousness, mind, emotions and body IV. Grow thru, grow from, grow out of, transcend. Then we become a higher vibrational level, more aware and a higher state of consciousness. As this is experienced by us, the Mother Earth and humanity at large is also influenced by these changes.

DENIS, bless you for sharing the info re the World Peace Conference. Every time I read it I become even more aware of the power of LOVE. Without love, there is no peace or joy or harmony.

"TO" to the I Am of you in response to your comment earlier in the day (18th). Some resources for reading: I. Jesus and the Essenes by Dolores Cannon, an Arkansan. II. One of the Edgar Casey books and I don't remember the title. I think it may have been the one on Atlantis. III. The Magdalene Gospel by Mary Ellen Ashcroft IV. Dancing in the Shadows of the Moon by Machaelle Small Wright. Hold the thought that opinions do not always mean fact or Truth. In any of these references you may gain a bit of fact, an ounce OR and abundance of Truth, parables, and opinions. There are many opinions including much written for web viewing. Some of what I told you last night I know because I was "there". Other parts came from studies over many years and the memories which were brought to the surface by these studies. Have you ever done any past life regressions? More directly to answering your question. Again there are many opinions........mine is that the Master spent much of the time which was NOT discussed in in the bible in Egypt, India and other eastern countries. This time was invested in studying what we currently refer to as astrology and astronomy plus numerology and philosophy. There was much more. This is only a part of a much larger picture. Alexandria was a favorite place for there were many wise men to study with there. I can offer you no written proof. Ask Him yourself when you go into meditation. Then you will know what is fact and what is fiction should you choose to truly listen for the answer.

Hey DENIS, sweet man. Yeah. You caught me. I have wondered if you still participated in this forum. Last night for the first in probably a year and a half I had this real strong urge to "come back" to check out "who's here" and who's spouting trash and who has wisdom for inspiration to share. Then I became caught up in some of the discussions and maybe I'm hooked again. Keep up the JOY energy for all earth travelers in Australia. PEACE.

Same here, Same Here.

Hi all, Well, it'd take more than just a little ruffling of feathers to chase me away :-) I am too interested in learning to be put off by occassional conflict. I had a nice response written earlier, but it wouldn't go through and I thought I'd saved it....the gist was that I was grateful for the reminders of many truths that you all have been giving me, and to reiterate that my feelings are not hurt. I was frustrated, yes, but I have no vested interest in what you all think of me :-) I don't mean that callously--it's just that these email relationships are weird! ;-) Like a bunch of disembodied voices in my head ;-) Still the need to feel heard is not new for me...so I don't doubt that this situation is of ultimate benefit for me :-) I think that I get frustrated when I don't think someone has heard me because I do have some attachment to being acknowledged or smart or something like that--not consciously, at the time. After all--wanting to be heard seems "reasonable" enough :-) Anyway, thanks for all the input and support. In view of the idea that we're all one, usual considerations drop away... Peace! Cathy

In fact I've been wondering where he's at lately.

Kererya it was Geoff. Here is the URL for anyone who may want to read it:

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/callanish/39/theway.htm

Most of the interesting stuff is in the bottom half of that page. Ahhh, memories. Where would we be without them?

Karen & Cathy, since you are relatively new I thought I'd inform you that the anonymous poster from earlier is an old visitor who often drives by and takes a swipe at someone and hides behind the anonymity of an anonomiser to prevent being identified. He is a professional disrupter who tries to pit one person against another on a personal level. Trying to divide the room and stifle discussion. Most of the posters here, especially newer ones, have fallen victim of his manouvers.

While I would agree that I may have had some conflicts, I think most people would agree that they welcome my participation here. Not so our friend, though. That is why he projects his shadow onto me. Almost all who have stopped posting here in the last year are due to his great handywork. If you don't believe me just look back in the archives. the "truth" is all there.

We all have IP numbers on the screen next to our name and these pretty much identify us, like an electronic signature. So I'm putting in this archive link for you to just scan down the page and match up the IP number of the anonymous poster today with the ones you find on THIS PAGE. You can scan fast and just stop at the pictures and graphics. He's very HTML bonkers. It's the same guy. He just drove most of the posters on that page away from this quite brilliant Forum.

Hmmm.. Always that shadow.

To whoever posted the link to "The Way Into the Light," thank you. I didn't have time to read it, so I printed it out and have been reading a bit everyday. To me, it's a compendium of lots of things that have been bouncing around in my head for a while now. It's a pleasure to read. I apologize for being too lazy to go back and see who provided the link.

Cathy, I know what you mean about perceiving things a certain way, and feeling offended. Using language in this medium takes aways all of the wealth of information provided when we speak to someone face to face. However, it's also true that when we feel offended, there's something in us that makes us feel so, a particular sensitivity.

"Holding a mirror" up to oneself is an easy task, reflecting on what is there is a totally different story. Looking within with an open mind and heart is not an easy task, but the more difficult the task, the greater the rewards or in this case, the insight.

Hey D2! Saw a Barry White special last night...did a lot of bare-foot dancing with the hubby! What are you listening to these days?

Hey to, nice to see you in here. Glad we posted at the same time !!!

Our tiny country is in 6th place in the medal standings. Stop the games right now, so we can savor. Dutch TV has managed to capture the spirit of being here. Every team member is so thrilled to be here and every medal a cause for national celebration.

We got to see Pieter race live as we are only 9 hours behind Australia. Must sleep fast now so we can watch more fun. No sappy documentaries and music, just lots of action from every venue !

(LOL).........just being a smart ass (as usual).

Determining the "truth".

When you're not "holding" anywhere (within), not trying to BE Somebody, .....empty, open, no axe to grind, etc., then it's easy to "look" within for that "truth".

Also, there isn't a "feeling" of being attacked. As you know, that happened to me here on the Forum. In other words, it's evident when you are. Then, you determine the "truth" based on what the facts and circumstances are/were. Honesty with your-self ("Self") is not easy, but it's the only "truth" really.

R.Jay, enjoy the ride man ! When the student is ready the teacher appears.

===========

Cathy

As one who has attacked and been attacked the only thing you can do is ask yourself the question why you feel triggered or the need to trigger someone else.

No one can hurt your feelings without your permission, so use Hadi as the mirror he is and ask yourself (as I have and he has) what part of his truth can you not face and why ?

Nothing truly "bad" ever happens here or anywhere, it is all a mirror to check and see where you are right now. What am I supposed to learn from this interaction is the real question... Look into that mirror if you dare.

The answers will astound you.

Hello Friends....

Two weeks ago a person sent me a daily devotional note with a lovely quote and underneath it was inscribed the words, 'If someone offers their opinion freely without prayer or grounding their conclusion on the Bible, we should steer clear'. That response intrigued and bothered me as we seem now to find more ways to isolate ourselves from each other in this world in the name of a particular spiritual practice. Living in a land that was once ravaged by the Crusades and Reformation, more has been done in the name of the carpenter from Galilee to kill and divide each other without any respect for the more than 2/3 of the earth which follows other spiritual paths.

As the world now gathers together in celebration of sport in Sydney I thought it important to also share a note from Sharon Franquemont of Lifebridge Foundation, giving her first-hand impressions of the recent spiritual UN Millenium Summit. If this moves you, please pass it along. I am sitting here clapping my hands loudly and hope you will also join in as well. Intolerance really has no place as there is only one of us in the room !

(Thanks to Tommye - caught you lurking girlfriend ! - for sending this along.)

========

Dear Ones,

The Millennium World Peace Summit. So many images, so many new friends, so much love and hope....The echoes of the prayers in the General Assembly were so easy to meditate with and be in prayer with or ride into the cosmos with. I spent most of eight hours with my eyes closed listening for the melodious sounds of the different chants, songs, prayers, and dedications.

Each of you is familiar with U shaped General Assembly Hall. Imagine saffron robes, Tibetan monk orange and cranberry, orange robes, Sufi hats, Sikh turbans, Muslim black robes, Catholic priests and cardinals with their red or magenta undergarments, the black hoods of the Greek Orthodox, Korean shamans with black peaked hats, beautiful Eagle bonnets of Native Americans, the colorful blue and red sacred clothes of the reindeer people of Northern Sweden, East Indian saris shimmering everywhere, white robes, purple robes of African priests, the large high, white bonnets of the Russian orthodox church, the gray robes of Japanese Shinto priests, the painted robes of African shamans, feather headdresses from Brazil and Central America, Anglican collars, and many other pleasures greeting your eyes where every you looked in the Hall. It was extraordinary. In fact it was so unusual that in addition to listening to each other, by the second day, everyone was having their picture taken with everyone else in the hallways between presentations.

When Kofi Annan stood up, we gave him a standing ovation for inviting the spiritual communities to be part of the UN community in terms of support. When Bawa asked the assembled community from the podium, "Clap if you are willing to be a supportive force for the United Nations and the creation of peace on our planet?" a thunderous clapping happened again. Kofi Annan was visibly moved and had to wipe tears from his checks as they rolled down. As the support continued to be expressed into the walls of this hallowed chamber (walls which had been reverberating with prayers all day), tears continued to follow. It was very touching.

One of my many responsibilities (to say we are understaffed with less than 50 people to serve the needs of 2200, many of whom are used to being the center of adoring attention and carefully planned details for taking care of them, is an understatement so we've all worn 5-6 different hats) during the past three days has been to be with the 65 Indigenous delegates. They are each precious to me. Late in the day yesterday (we were running 3 hours late) it was their turn to present to the halls of the UN. Oren Lyons called for all the Indigenous to stand together as he spoke. The 87 year old elder with his Eagle bonnet, Joe Medicine, had been wanting to welcome the people to Turt Island at every venue, finally got a chance. He sang a beautiful welcoming song. Then Oren spoke the most moving words about the importance of our time followed by an Eskimo, Angaangaq Lyberth, from Greenland saying, "About 10 years ago now, one of my people came back to our village and reported a strange phenomena. 'There is a trickle of water coming down the glacier. I think that the ice is melting.'" Today that trickle is a stream of water. So I say to you, while we sit here talking, and making commitments to peace, remember the ice is melting.....the ice is melting. But this ice is easy to melt compared to the ice in the human heart, so I am going to sing a song for that, a song to melt the ice of the human heart." Standing their in clothing made from 3 different types of seal skins and a simple leather string around his forehead, he took out a large seal skin drum and began to play a haunting and deep call to inner integrity. When he finished, he whispered once again, "Remember the ice is melting." After a moment of stunned silence those who had listed to this remarkable presentation with 65 Indigenous people standing in support behind them broke into thunderous clapping again. Later, when I walked with Oren to the bus, a saffron-colored robed monk came to Oren and said, "You (meaning all of the people) have been Moses for this gathering; you have parted the seas and left us a path to a more beautiful future."

The Indigenous people's message became like water for a humanity dying of thirst. Their panel today was standing room only with crowds being turned down at the door for over an hour. The Amazon from Brazil told of his training, did the healing song and dance for inner pain, and set out a sound from his mouth like one can only imagine being a bird or other creature in the jungle. The Ecuadorian shaman sang the song of a river and his mouth, too, recreated the sound of every river I have ever stood beside including the fish as they are jumping, the various birds, the wind, the many different water currents, and then he sang the song for healthy water....The Mayan elder presented a talk that one person told me was worth the whole four days alone....Etc. Etc. Etc. Jane Godall sat in the back the entire time (we went over an hour because each Indigenous delegation had a message to give) and had it filmed.

Further the Indigenous delegation joined many other delegations in calling for the Dalia Lama's inclusion and condemning his exclusion from the podium. No doubt this didn't make the Chinese happy because it was greeted by a resounding cheer by all participants every time. Meanwhile, the Dalai Lama's representatives were of the highest order and very present every where as was the Chinese delegation. They sat as equals on the floor. In addition, the Dalai Lama's CNN message was broadcast throughout the UN.

As Deborah Moldow expressed it, "The Dalai Lama made it into the UN halls after all." It was/is extraordinary.....

Well, my friends, I am quite tired as it is late and tomorrow our last day will be quite big....We are signing a beautiful document; A Commitment To Peace. And early in the morning we are having a Women's Breakfast entitled: Women and the Birth of World Peace. I shall continue to think of you and invite you to share your day with me energetically, so if you sense that you are only partly doing what you are doing, know that my prayer that you, too, could be part of this historic moment may be working.

Good Night.

Sharon Franquemont

Lifebridge Foundation website is http://www.lifebridge.org

=========

Ook, Time Magazine three weeks ago featured Kofi Annan in an article "The Virtues of Kofi Annan". It is worthy reading at their website www.time.com/europe

The five virtues are: Dignity, Confidence, Courage, Compassion and Faith

He proposes a world filled with dignified people and calls on states of the world to intervene wherever and whenever human lives are being consumed in conflagrations of hate, disease or poverty. He is also determined to plug the rest of the world into these horrors, to make leaders aware of their responsibility not just for their own citizens but also for the health of the global soul.

Nothing – particularly not state borders – should stand in the way of intervention. He believes that the old orthodoxy that states can do as they please behind their borders is nonsense in a world of borderless information and travel and communications. He has boiled his thinking down to a simple idea – call it the Kofi Doctrine – which has a chance of becoming as elemental to this century as the Truman Doctrine was to the last: Sovereignty is not a shield.

The idea is terrifying to the Chinese, who think of Tibet when they hear it. It also unnerves the Russians (they hear Chechneya when he speaks of Kosovo). And it bothers the US because it works both ways. Seeing a crime and failing to report it are as bad as committing the crime.

Karen, good question!

So how do you determine the "truth" if your ego is involved when you're feeling attacked? Serious question, not just quibbling or smarting off.

Another way of putting it is that my teacher has/is always reminding me that this is the incarnation I'm to do deal with, as this is the one "IT" chose.

I may experience these other "realities" along the way, but I must accept my Dharma (purpose) for this one.

Phoenix, there are reports of many people being "somewhere else" during sleep, and many who actually participate in/at the location or scene.

I'm sure someone can come up with source's for you to find out more about the phenomenum.

My instructions were to only deal with what related to "here and now", and leave the rest until the blanks were filled in.

There are many siddhi's (powers) that can be cultivated, much like the "seven gifts of the Holy Spirit", and each of us are endowed with some special attribute(s) that can be developed, given the time and inclination to do so.

I wasn't able (still) to purchase Chopra's "Wisdom Within" CD, but as the "method" of "clearing" (letting go) is all the same no matter who is delivering the message I would hope that "we'd" recognize that the "idea" (perception/impression) "we" get of someone being superior, more knowledgeable, "enlightened", or whatever........and we take offense.........is just another layer of our ego structure, which has to be "let go" just like ALL the rest of "it", to arrive at that "Place" within.

Even when attacked, I look at "it" and "see" if what has/is being said is "truth" as far as my evolvement is concerned, otherwise the words are just more fodder for the Akash.

Hope that makes sense.

Being called an arrogant ass-hole was one of my greatest growing experiences.

"to"........can you explain about this being transported into another reality....i'm not exactly sure what you mean...I have had many experiences where I know that I'm definately 'somewhere else'..it wakes me from a sound sleep...my body is different, feels different..the messages that come through are (for me, at least ) something to think about..I'm assuming that the norm do not have these experiences...yet hopefully that there are a collective portion of those who do have similar experiences....I hardly think that I'm the only one...yet I know of no one that I interact with that has had the same experiences......anyway..if you could let me know what you mean by a 'different reality', I'd be happy to discuss what I have experienced....

Here we go again.

I think Cathy expressed her frustrations very clearly, and there may indeed be a good "mirror" there if that's the metaphor we want to use, but why don't we tackle these problems a little less personally as Cathy herself suggested to Hadi? All it takes is a bit of attention to wording, an awareness. Perhaps that's exactly one of the purposes of this kind of forum.

Cathy, you're not the only one who thinks Hadi comes off sounding superior most of the time.

Many of us don't post anymore because of it.

When it comes to statements and questions such as was he married, fathered a child, or anything else about His life really doesn't matter.

I'm reminded of His reply to a disciple when the disciple was talking about what someone else had said or did (something like that), and His reply was........."What is that to you? Come follow Me" (or again.........something like that).

Long ago I came to the conclusion (and by His own words) that Jesus was a "pointer".

His whole message was about "LOVE", and how to "BE" "LOVE", and where to find "IT".

There's no question in my mind that He was a realized Being, and a Son of "God".

(Hope my priest isn't reading this)

(bowing)..........Hadi.

Cathy, fair enough.

I think the original strand, which we have momentarily lost was, do we need to be single to become Masters? I summarise, of course. I was only trying to show that one doesn't have to be single to be either Spiritual or even a Master, but that it is probably easier to become a Master if you are entirely devoted to the Way and this is easier as a single person without the tug and responsibility of family and spouse.

I think we got distracted when we came to identifying what constitutes a Master. You have your ideas, I have mine.

Terry, are we one?

{{{tommye}}}

Welcome back!

On September 13th I wrote -"There are many historical scholars who would contend that Jesus of Nazareth was not single. Only the church writes him so."

Thanks for adding more substance to that comment.
You seem to have quite a bit of detail there which falls outside of the conventional story and I was wondering who or what literary source you are drawing from. I'm just interested for the research.

I think essentially you are emphasising what I was trying to relate in the first instance.
"These things and much greater things shall be done by the least amongst you", is an important statement. It is Jesus saying I am not unique. But the religions try to make these Prophets unique, and in that very action they place not only those men but also their wisdom out of our reach. Yet it is all within each of us. We each have the potential of a Jesus and of a Buddha, and that potential doen't mean we must live carbon copied lives. Each of us is individual. Each has his own voice, his own personality. Each person can only understand a thing in the context of what they already know.
Jesus did not know about quantum physics and there was no word for the atom let alone the subatomic, and so, attempting to relate his understanding in terms that people would understand he said things like, "The Kingdom is like a mustard seed."

These parables and metaphores are a way of expressing things for which there was no language back then. Now we know more and we can see that the "mustard seed" regferred to could be a reference to the subatomic structure of everything in the Universe.

Namaste'

Tommye, so nice to "see" you dropping by again.

Question!

I know it's long been suggested that the 18 missing years of Jesus life that is unaccountable for he was being taught by the Essenes. What you've posted leads me to believe thats been proven, and if so, I'd appreciate you directing me to the source.

Thanks, and welcome back.

KEN: I would enjoy discussing your quest of a day or so ago focused toward the discovery of what I choose to call "Life Purpose" - the special reason for our continued being here which transends our other committments. You are welcome to contact me at tommye@arkansas.net should a discussion be of interest to you.

HADI and CATHY: In reference to the ongoing dialogue regarding significant Masters, there was/is the belief of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of people throughout the last 2,000 years in the marriage of Jesus of Nazareth and Mary Magdalene who were childhood friends. Included in this scenerio was/is the belief that there was a daughter, Sari (Sarah), born after the crucifixion and after the Magdalene had escaped to another country to save her life and the life of the unborn child. Supposedly, Joseph of Armethia was significant in the escape. Others feel strongly that one of the disciples played a major role in this event. There are many paintings representing Magdalene and many places of worship focused on her throughout Europe. Hadi, Jesus not only talked the talk, he lived the Truth as He knew it. He and Magdalene were taught in the beliefs of the Essenes which among other differences of the day, allowed women to teach and preach. Supposedly Mary the mother of the Chirst was also raised in the Essene culture. During that period of history, Jewish women were not allowed to speak in a synagogue if in fact they were allowed to enter the synagogue or temple. In those which allowed them to come in they were required to use a seperate door from the men and sit in a different and segregated area. Women were not allowed to speak to ANY man in public. Magdalene disregarded this law. That is why she was considered a whore. Any woman who spoke to any male in public was considered a whore. Neither were they allowed to touch a man in public. Jesus was known to kiss Magdalene on the lips in public which caused serious ramifications. Wherever He went to teach and preach, she and some other women left all else behind and went with the Master and the disciples. This was severly frowned upon by the various sects of the Jewish community other than the Essenes. At the Last Supper (this according to law was for guys only) Magdalene shows up with some very expensive oil and annoints the Master's feet and head. He talks to her and praises her for this honor. Peter and some of the other disciples got seriously bent out of shape over this breach of "law"...both by Magdalene and by Jesus. Jesus the Christ lived what He knew was truth and was tortured and killed for it. The significance of this was not that He was killed because the "big church folks" didn't want him around healing people (how dare he) and kissing and talking to the woman He loved in public (the patriarch law was serious stuff). Neither did they want common people to know that they could go directly to God without going thru them ( power/control issues here) and that they could do all the things which the Christ did. He said so. He also said that it was not Him, it was the Father within him that was doing these things and they could do even greater thing than He did. The real issue at hand was to teach all humanity that the body is not all there is to us. The soul/spirit (your choice of terms) transcends these earthly conditions, laws, limitations and CANNOT BE KILLED - EVER. Many believe that Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed, Elijah, Elisha, etc. were all human forms of the same soul/spirit. Does it matter? Not really. What matters is the discovery of who WE really are, don't you think? We are all teachers. We are all students. AND there are Masters who walk among us.

HADI--Thanks for the apology...it was unnecessary, though appreciated :-) I think the problem may well lie in our medium of contact--it's just things you say like this:"Suddenly I'm a bullying fundalmentalist when the other day by your own admission, I was someone you often agreed with. Or was that just you being diplomatic?" I feel as if you aren't really hearing what I'm saying, and twist it around...I did NOT say you were a fundalmentalist. I gave the example showing how your responses have made me feel--like they are coming from someone who thinks he has much more wisdom than I do, and that I should listen on that basis alone--never mind the questions I might still have or the points I'm trying to share :-) And the thing about my being diplomatic...was that sarcasm? Without seeing your face, and with no little smiley faces etc...I can't tell :-) A lot of it is word choice...recently you said to me "you misunderstand so much"--you might have said the same thing w/o making it personal--like "there is so much to understand etc..." The first choice of expression is condescending, the second nonjudgemental....to me, at least :-)I DO agree with much you have to say....and I said that even in my "complaint" post. But, you can be difficult to have a dialogue with, for me, because you seem to misread the gist behind my posts---and maybe it's lack of clarity on my part--who knows? I am not really attached to my ideas of Jesus or whatever religious figure--I saw the Last Temptation of Christ and loved it. I am open to looking at things and my views anew. But I think you have more success in getting people to look at their beliefs when you approach them with a bit more honor and respect for how they currently think and believe...I appreciate your desire to open my eyes...and I suppose I might look at what you have said recently...I tend to not explain myself that well...as I type my kids are often running about, interupting my train of thought, and leaving me w/o the energy to look up things to support what I'm saying or more specific examples...and truly, I tend to think in impressions vs detailed facts about things... Anyway, no need to shut up :-) I've lost the impulse behind the original post that started this discussion :-) Not whining--it's just passed as things do for me--not because of you! It's not a hurt ego--I have nothing vested in what you think of me. It's a frustrated ego!--I could just say what I have to say regardless of your response--but that isn't dialogue. And maybe I shouldn't need dialogue?! But that's for another day! Good night! Cathy

I'm delighted that some of you wonderful beings who were here a year and a half or two years ago are still participating in the forum. I must learn once more how to communicate in color and in paragraphs with this site. CAROL, I am especially delighted that you are still sharing your wisdom and harmonious energies. Tommye

Cathy: I am most sorry if I have offended you, and I'm sorry I remind you of your fundamentalist Christian cousin. It is strange when I can be so broad minded as to accept and intergrate so many diverse beliefs and ideologies, and relate to them, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist, and yet still be compared by someone like you to a "fundamentalist"? It's always interesting how people's perceptions can be so easily clouded by their hurt egos. Suddenly I'm a bullying fundamentalist when the other day by your own admission, I was someone you often agreed with. Or was that just you being diplomatic?

I am not trying to make you believe anything I have said or claimed. I haven't claimed or said anything, if you look. I have simply questioned you and questioned the contents of your mind, in the hope that you may do so also. Inviting you to "know" rather than "believe". You seem to think that I am telling you to believe in certain things that "I" believe in. I am not. I am asking you why you believe in the things you do and seeing if you can test those beliefs. The comparison of Deepak and Jesus is that Deepak is at least alive and with us and we are reading "his" words and hearing "his" wisdom, first hand. In the case of people like Jesus, we don't actually know, do we? Jesus himself wrote nothing. The New Testament, the "gospels" were written a hundred or so years after the death of Jesus by people who never knew him. They were based on stories and anectodes from people who knew people who did and on certain letters and documents of the time. Very little is known about him before his ministry. Next to nothing. The Virgin Birth and all that stuff was written way after he died and may just be "a good tale". That's what the word Gospel means, you know. "Good story".
It cannot be verified and is probably just an old urban myth. Maybe it is not, but we don't know. However, if we question their validity, we begin to "think" instead of retreaving the old files from the mind which were simply what we were told to believe. The film "The Last Temptation of Christ" dared hint that Jesus may have been human and had carnal desires. The Fundamentalists were outraged and picketed the film, because they have a fantasy "image" burned into their Psyche, and it is an image no other "human" can equal or duplicate. Therefore it protects the "image" and the idea of this God/Man forever. Since no man can ever emulate Jesus, no man or woman can ever offer anything better. A better vision. A better reality. In this way you become hypnotised because there will never be room for the "Truth" all the time one believes in such a big lie. In Islam there is the fundamental claim that Mohammed is the last Prophet and that there can be no others after him. This claim protects Islam from change by a "new" prophet, a new "seer". It makes him supreme and any view contrary to this is heresy and will be punished. The Jesus story too, predicts that "Many will come in my name" and that they are all imposters and cannot be trusted. You would know the real Jesus because he is going to ride in on the wings of a cloud with thunder and lihgtening. Again, it's like an impossibly tough act to follow! In the Bahai system they have a Prophet who claims to be the Messiah and the Prince of Peace who is predicted in Revelations and other Biblical texts, and this guy too claims that he is the last prophet and that there can be no more Prophets after him. This is a great way to protect and Deify the Ego.

I don't know how long you've been reading here, Cathy, but from time to time feathers will be ruffled, the mirror will be held up large and we all end up experiencing some pain, some disturbance, some offence, but generally I think most people here have grown from those experiences. I wish nothing less for you. I'm sorry if my questioning appeared aggressive. If the discussion had been broken up by more interchanges it may have seemed less intense, but no one else was joining in all day. I don't think anything you have said is foolish or sounds foolish. I doubt if anyone else but you feels that way, and I'm sorry if my manner created that impression. I'll shut up for a while and invite you to express yourself more fully.

Namaste'.

my snip got left out...it was about what you felt was my comparing real people with illusory perceptions--C

Yikes HADI--you sure seem to be a bit overreactive to my discussion---or so it seems to me :-) I certainly did not call Deepak et al fakes...nor was I discrediting them--I said I believe they are wise, but are not yet at the level of say, Jesus or Buddha (the point of that being to look at their personal lives and involvements as an indicator of how masters choose to live)---I don't think that is a criticism, though you seemed to think so? You asked <> Deepak Chopra is no more real to me than Jesus or whatever, so no, I am not comparing real people to illusory ideas---I do not know how Deepak "is" anymore than I know how Jesus or the many masters referred to in my readings are/were. I don't understand your condescension--and feel it best if I do not try to clarify my position and what I was trying to discuss...I doubt that you would hear me anyway. You have interesting perspectives, but also have a way of relating sometimes that is arrogant and inconsiderate. I imagine you are "above" caring what others think of you, and will say that my reaction to your words is my choice--which is true--but I am basing my choice to feel irritated on the fact that you choose to belittle most everything I say :-) I enjoy philosophical discusion, but not when it becomes a matter of having my sharing of ideas made to seem foolish! I have a family member who is a fundamental Christian. Once, we were talking about religious matters. He was trying to convince me that he *knew* best, and acted as if I should just accept what he said because he was older and wiser. I get that same feeling from you.... Cathy

Namaste'

Hadi, I was about to make a similiar comment.

I was wondering if everyone had been transported into another "reality".

Or I had been----again.

I want to compliment you on how you've been describing "relationships" and the aspects of one's own spiritual (soul) evolution in that regard.

The "time" I've spent "out of it", or not being available for another person in the here and now did prove to be "wrong" for them.

In your case, and others, it apparently can be done.

I bow..............embrace..........

Boy, seems like the Olympics have really taken over!

R. Jay Silva: Most, if not all of Dr. Chopra's books are on tape. Of those, I recommend The Seven Spiritual Secrets of Success, Creating Affluence, and The Way of the Wizard. There are also three live collaborations with Wayne Dyer out, Living Without Limits, Living Beyond Miracles, and How to Create Your World the Way You Really, Really, Really, Really Want. Of those three, I enjoyed the last two more than the first one listed.

As for audio products based on his seminars, I think your best bet would be checking out Nightingale/Conant. Click on their name to go to their website. They have several multi-tape sets of Deepak's works. My favorite of the ones there that I've listened to is SynchroDestiny - Discover the Power of Meaningful Coincidence to Manifest Abundance in Your Life.

Drear Sir Madam, For the last few years i have being reading books about personal development area,the reason being i try to understand who am i.yet couldn't find the answers,but for my long years of search for my personal development, i think i may have begining to find an answer for search. last month i started getting in to Anhony Robbins personal development program and got to know about Dr.Chopra's work.i have only listen him talk only for 10 min and i would say that's the only 10 min i have being looking for all my life. here i am writing to thank his wonderful work he is doing and i am only starting get know his work. i know there are so many help information about his work but i am specially looking for some audio or cd's about his seminars..or any other product might help my life.so i must stop here...and can't wait to get started getting to know him..bye

"Po-Tweep?!"

Cathy, Buddha was still married when he returned from his mission as well as before he set off. Tens of thousands of people followed him back into his home town. Tens of thousands more welcomed him with reverence and respect. But his wife walked up to him and slapped him in the face. The crowd were shocked. But Buddha laughed, "It's alright. She's very angry with me. I've been away for many years."

If Moses, Noah, Abraham Mohammed and Deepak don't qualify, I would like to hear who your "models" are who were single and why these models in your "mind" are more valid as Masters? Why is there a need to "divide" them and "seperate" them as better or worse, authentic or fake? Are you not "attached" to a fictional "model" which is "unreal"? Are you not comparing real people with an "illusory" idea which you have composed from your "perceptions"? And were those perceptions not originally formed by the "collective"? Is it not the case that your model is essentially the "religious" model of Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God?

People differ. All these Masters were only people. People who became Enlightened.

Hello,I am an ardent fan of Sir Deepak Chopra's teaching and always had an interest in the amazing field of spirituality and the queer relationship of Body and Mind.I came across your book "Ageless Body and Timeless Mind",which really gave me new perspective of my inner self,and a new insight.I want to read more about the subject and any new theory or any stuff relating to it.May God Bless YOu.Dr.Nikhat

Crown/Harmony Books

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