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Beautifully said, Peggy.

My favourite definitions of truth:

"The Truth is a living entity. Your mind can never capture it. Once you speak, you leave Its domain. You move into the denser realm of fact or guess. Once there, someone can always contradict what you say."
- from Starbuilders

Plus a quote from Kierkegaard (spelling?) that the truth is that which makes you a better being. So it's apersonal thing. :)

Besides which, who's to judge if you are a 'better' being? Better than what? :)

Namaste.

Late night thoughts:

I just finished watching an HBO program on internet hate groups. The thing that struck me is how profoundly members of these various groups are convinced that what they are doing is for the good of the nation. It had never occurred to me before that Timothy McVay might see himself as a hero. I was stunned that the author of The Turner Diaries looked like such a pleasant old man. How do people get caught up in these groups? I know that I must sound terribly naive.

There is a lot of harm that can spring from "knowing" that you are right. I've seen it happen to religious leaders, teachers, political tyrants, mental health patients and well-intentioned parents. What a strange assortment!

My own choice now, I think, is to become more cautious around people who know it all. It is possible that I may miss out on a lot of insights in doing that. I do respect that certain people may have had great revelations. But I had rather gather glimpses of truth from people who are either content with their lives or who are seeking answers. I feel more at ease with someone who also feels comfortable saying, "I don't know." I will be wary of people who have decided that they will push rather than lead.

If you are still looking for answers or if you are generally at peace with yourself and others, I would appreciate a nudge when you see me getting too puffed up with myself. (Many of us are guilty at one time or another.) But I won't put much stock in what you say unless you demonstrate the truths that you say that you believe. You don't have to be perfect -- just a little centered and compassionate.

I thank those of you who see past the smart-aleck in me. I like the out-spoken nature that I have but I do wish that I had the gift of tact that so many of you bring here.

And God bless the crazy and defiant Dennis Miller who always says, "That's my opinion but I could be wrong."

Well, TMOBICBW...

Good morning folks,

Just a brief visit - I have just had a quick flick through recent posts and plugged "Can We Be Good Without God" into a search engine and came up with a couple of interesting links -

Interesting debate

Donna Morrison-Reed

Office Hours article

OnMission.com

I haven't had a chance to thoroughly read these links so don't blame me if they aren't your cup-of-tea. Blaming is a bad habit anyways ...

More later ...

hadi, how come you never answered dave's question "Just what is the nature of your beef with me?"

in your response that begins "Well, Dave that's rich" you point to problems with Kate and Peggy but you don't mention Dave. is he guilty by association? you don't mention it at all except then you start quizzing him on his beliefs? what is that?

is that your beef? that you don't agree with his beliefs? man, that's shallow!

self-righteous: convinced that one's own beliefs are superior when contrasted with anothers.

Who me? That doesn't apply since I really really really really KNOW that I am right.

Hadi, in my earlier response to your dictionary definition of "soul" I didn't even bother to look it up in mine, just took yours at face value. But to show that even dictionaries differ, here's what Webster's New Collegiate contributes to the notion:

...1) the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life 2) the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe 3) a person's total self, etc.

I feel my response was along these lines.

Patricia, we saw "Kiss the Sky" recently and I agree with you that it's an interesting (though not overly deep) movie. We recommended it to Kate as a good one to compare with "Mindwalk" which is a much more provocative effort.

Thanks for those book recommendations, too.

Cathy, I like your definition(s) of spirituality well enough to say that of the Zen attitudes that I know much about (and that is not very deep, I can assure you) I tend to believe along those lines about our relationship with that "higher being." In some senses I support the unity with Nature as our relationship with that entity. I have admired some of the Native American notions along those lines.

Bottom line: I think we are all connected to everything around us and that our mindfulness toward Nature (in all its forms) is the best way to ensure our survival and prosperity.

The ideas expressed in William Cullen Bryant's "Thanatopsis" are pretty much what I'm talking about.

PS...regarding the definition of spirituality, it would allow then for someone to have ideas that there was no God or larger force with which to have a relationship...that would then be their "spiritual" position. It also allows for all the different approaches Deepak mentions in the 7 levels. You might also consider Ken Wilbers 9 levels of consciousness/spirituality which is based some on known psychological stages...I've just started reading Putting on the Mind of Christ by Jim Marion...discusses these...very interesting thus far :-)

I guess it does help to know what one means when using such words eh? :-)Even though there are dictionaries, people might have different slants :-)

I might respond to the list of questions...if I can find the time...

Cathy

I hope my biography isn't based entirely on your recollections. Ashleigh Brilliant --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monosyllables from the rooftop: you said it well, Peggy. I also want readers to know I, too, have seen change in DaveR. There was indeed a time a couple of years ago when we hit him pretty hard about some of his attitudes that we didn't like. This isn't a testimony to a 100% agreement on every single thing (cloning wasn't what we had in mind anyway), but it is a testimony to his willingness to talk with Peggy and me about things we felt deeply about. His respect for our personal experiences and equal willingness to open his mind and eyes are very much appreciated!

Peggy, I recently watched a movie on video called "Kiss the Sky" which deals with male gender issues that I thought was quite interesting. It is certainly not profound or even of much depth but it does address "patriarchy" from a male perspective and basically the message is that no-one gets off scott-free. I thought you might be interested. Also, for Dave, there is a brand new book just released here called "Can We Be Good Without God?" by Robert Buckman. He is a Canadian medical doctor {oncologist} originally from Britain who calls himself an agnostic and classifies himself as a "humanist". I heard him interviewed recently and this book is definitely worth a read. He has written several books but most are related to medical, death and dying issues. Blessings to you both.

I think a good definition of spirituality is one's ideas, perceptions of their relationship to God (or something larger than themselves)....this can take on many forms...

Later! Cathy

p.s. the idea that Mr. Chopra's ideas are simplistic seems sort of funny to me now. I thought this myself at first -- when I had only skimmed HOW TO KNOW GOD. Simple, yes; simplistic, no. That he is able to reach a large audience is very impressive -- but this is another reason I had little interest in his work at first (with three advanced degrees, intellectual pride determined my interests). I'm glad I didn't get in my own way too much to benefit.

HOW TO KNOW GOD has been of immense value to me. I have read it so many times now I have lost count. It is a map, a very powerful guide, my own healer. EVERY DAY IMMORTALITY is my companion to the book above. I wish I could better express with words how much I appreciate these gifts.

Hadi, I hope you won't consider this a copout, but about the only information I have on those "Spirituality" terms you mention is from "The Skeptic's Dictionary" which, as you would probably guess, paints those terms in a light that is, shall we say, not overly flattering. Since I'm essentially ignorant of those terms in any serious context, I guess the "I don't know" answer is most accurate.

But when those terms are used to explain other terms, and I'm left with the choice of going to other arcana to get answers to help with answers, I tend just to back off and say, "not my cup of tea." That's why I suggest using common language, or having those ideas expressed in terms of common experiences, if they are to be useful. To that extent they are "mumbo-jumbo" to me.

As for the dictionary definition of "soul," who am I to quarrel? I was giving my best description of how I relate to the concept. If we must stick by the dictionary definition, I would object to the "after death" part as far as my beliefs go.

Lennie, your post just blew me away! I see your own strength so clearly. I'm so glad that you didn't give up on us!!!

Carol, you are revealing the woman that I have wanted to get to know. Your love and peacefulness are quite evident here to me now. I welcome and embrace your love for both sides.

I love you too.

Hadi, in a more private conversation, you said that all of the feminist leaders were lesbians.

Although their sexual preferences seemed irrelevant to me, I know this statement to be a falsehood. Some of the leaders were/are lesbians and some were/are not. I wondered if you thought that being a lesbian somehow diminished them. If not, why was it even mentioned? It seemed as relevant as saying, "All feminist leaders wear pantsuits." I suspected, and still believe, that your purpose was to "inflame" both of the women involved in the conversation -- women that you know to be strong feminists. There is no way for me to know your purpose in saying what you did. But I think that in the context of the conversation, it showed both your homophobia and your sexism.

The ensuing discussion left no doubt in my mind that you are prone to see women as fitting into the traditional stereotypes. The particulars of that discussion are lost to me. And as I have indicated to you by repeating a certain post of mine, my interpretation is all that I have to go on.

More recently, you spoke of having Grace "in tow" on your recent travels. Such language implies to me that you saw yourself in the more important role in your journey with her. At least a couple of other people picked up on it too.

By the way, it was not surprising to me that her career needs were not addressed with as much time as yours on that trip. That is just an observation and not meant to convey that you should have spent more time or that she didn't have input into the decision making.

These are only examples of a much broader picture that you have painted over the years that we have exchanged opinions. Some of the brush strokes in that painting have been subtle. But eventually, I got the picture.

As for asking Grace about your sexism, that is pointless because I do not know Grace. Sexism is not limited to men and she may not be tuned in to the biases of your thinking as represented in the language used in our discussions.

By the way, if you were referring to Kate and me when you spoke of the whispering ladies, it is only fair to let you know that I prefer to be referred to as a woman. As you know, many feminists feel that the "gentle manners" often associated with the use of the word lady are inappropriate.

As for the "whispering," that wouldn't apply to Kate or to me either. We have certainly not been reticent in speaking our minds very publicly. Shouting from the rooftops is a more appropriate metaphor.

As for my own sexism, I keep it under constant scrutiny. I am interested in gender issues and not just feminist issues. Males have also suffered from the results of sexist thinking -- whether it be in trying to fulfill traditional male roles or in holding traditional ideas about women.

Finally, I see no point in taking any further action to put the final touches to the end of our friendship. I suspect that that was probably just your need, once again, to tell me what to do.

really BIG stuff! :) great!!!

Thanks, Dave. I wasn't going to check in again until tomorrow, but I'm glad i did. I'm going out for the evening and Have only just got time to clarify a couple things.

I can't really define Spirituality as such except in terms of the teachings. The teachings talk about things like Karma, Transcendence, Dharma, Ego, Nirvana, Kundalini, Awakening, Enlightenment, Meditation, Oneness, etc. Are these the types of things you consider mumbo-jumbo?
Do you think of Spirituality as Religion?

I think the Soul question remains unanswered. In order to aid you in giving a more complete answer let me give you the dictionary definition of the Soul which applies to my question..:

Soul: The spirit or immaterial part of man, the seat of human personality, intellect, will, and emotions; regarded as an entity that survives the body after death.

Hopefully I'll catch up with you again at around midnight GMT.

Okay, Hadi, here's my "first response" to your questions:

You said, "In the interest of fairness I invite you to clarify your own beliefs and it might be helpful to do so by answering a few questions which I have listed below."

1. What are your personal thoughts on Deepak Chopra and his teachings?

A: There are quite a few. I think Deepak is motivated by a desire to be of value to a large audience. I think his major message is presented in a way that a large audience can relate to. I think his message is too simplistic for skeptics to take seriously. I think his claims about the scientific aspects of his system are poorly stated and not to be trusted. I think his TV appearances have been excellent for image-building and that his charisma is strong, but he deals in sound bites and double talk for the most part. I think his desire to be leader of a cult is vastly overstated by critics. I think cults are forming around him, but I don't accuse Deepak of being directly responsible for that. I think that in the long term, History will see his contributions as being "ahead of their time" and that his efforts at "popularizing" Spirituality will be seen as "cutting edge" in the grand scheme.

2. Which of Deepak’s books and tapes have you actually read or listened to.

A: My first exposure to Deepak was on Oprah Winfrey's show when I didn't pay much attention and thus dismissed him as another of the self-help merchants. The first thing I remember paying attention to was a PBS lecture on TV (I think it was "Ageless Body, Timeless Mind") where he spoke about things I had been thinking about for years. I was impressed with the fusion he was offering for Science/Religion issues. Later I read aloud to Peggy "The Seven Spiritual Laws Of Success" and "Ageless Body, Timeless Mind." I have also listened to a few (three maybe) of his audio tapes including (as best I can recall) "The Higher Self," but the lack of substance in them turned me off. I have seen several TV interviews on "Larry King Live" where he has seemed to be working from a script and avoiding any real questions.

3. Do you believe in a God?

A: I believe there is some "organizing principle" to the Universe. I can't accept that the whole thing is without some "grand design." I do not associate the cosmological with the moral, however. The "God" of the Bible is nothing more than another myth. Morality is a man-made commodity.

4. Do you believe in a Soul?

A: I believe that most (if not all) living things have an undefined "life force" that determines the difference between Life and Death. I have no idea what that is.

5. What is your understanding of the notion of Spirit?

A: I believe that Spirit is a synonym for Mind and Soul and whatever other name is used to encapsulate that "life force" mentioned above.

6. Do you believe we manifest everything?

A: Absolutely not. Shit happens! Good stuff happens. We participate, at best. We do not cause our reality. It is beyond our control. We can, at best, cope with Reality.

7. Do you believe we manifest our personal reality and if yes how?

A: No

8. Do you believe we are machines?

A: No. The portion of our physical make-up that seems machinelike is not an accurate description of its true composition. We have predictable aspects in our physical makeup which is what allows Medicine to work -- some of the time. But since Medicine doesn't have all the answers, our bodies are not as neat and structured as machines.

9. Do you believe we have free will?

A: Tough question. We have the capacity for free will, but are so influenced by so many factors that to claim "free will" is predominantly "hubris." We are who we are by way of our own personal pasts and the pasts of all our forebears. To deny that is to deny the major aspect of our selves.

10. Do you believe that "life" is a cosmic accident?

A: Not quite. I credit the "grand design" (whatever it is) to having Life (as we know it) on This Planet as much more than an accident.

11. Do you believe there is life elsewhere in the Universe.?

A: The odds would support that position. I'm in the "I don't know" seats.

12. If yes, do you believe in UFO’s and interstellar travel.?

A: Too broad a question for a simple answer. I'm waiting for better evidence.

13. Do you believe in ghosts?

A: Not as such.

14. Do you believe in parapsychology, i.e. healing by touch, long distance healing, telepathy, astral travel, the Tarot system.

A: In a word, "No." But I'm open to the possibility that they may have some basis in Reality. I don't reject them out of hand.

15. Do you believe in love?

A: Absolutely. That's one force in Life that seems to be beyond any doubt for me.

16. Do you believe Spirituality traffics in mumbo-jumbo?

A: Define "Spirituality" if you want a better answer than "Yes!"

I'm willing to expand or try to clarify any of those answers, if they deserve more discussion. But this was my "first pass" at getting to the "stream of consciousness" you advocated.

Message received.

I will take your post (including the afterthought) offline and copy it into a text file where I will insert my responses. This will take a while, since the day is already planned, but I hope to have you a "first response" before end-of-day tomorrow.

The questions are fair and reasonable, and "I don't know" is already going to be one of my most frequent answers, I can tell you that now.

I'm not ashamed to wear the label "Skeptic" (although I prefer to think it's just "skeptic" since I don't have real doubts about everything) and am pretty sure others would label me "agnostic" (as distinguished from "atheist"). I will try to expand on these basic ideas in my response to you.

By the way, your extracts do seem to have included enough context that I won't quibble with your choices as stated. If you want to take any of those (in the meanwhile) and propose additonal points from them, go right ahead.

I join in the request for others to jump in and voice their own positions on these and other topics. I fully support the "open forum" we have here. And that includes *everybody* -- not just those who have agreed with my positions.

Beautifully said, Lennie.

There are Truths and there are truths. One of the truths is that we are all in this thing together, and if we can't deal with individuals in this "tiny world" -- of a forum on the internet that (however they happened to find it) many people have wandered into and then out of, but only a few have hung around for longer than a few posts -- then how can we expect any great changes to happen in "the big world"?

These exchanges just go to show that we see things differently, and that's not automatically a bad thing. It's just a real thing, and we all need to learn how to deal with it.

I had this notion recently about "critical mass" that's been part of Deepak's message in some of his public statements. What if it's really like the mass in church where the "critical" ones have a chance at the pulpit?

Sorry, one important one I left out.

16. Do you believe Spirituality traffics in mumbo-jumbo?

Okay Dave, I noted your post to Cathy about old posts of a year or so ago and how you no longer think those are valid because you have changed or "grown" since then. I fully admit that the choice of the word "malarky" was from beliefs you expressed more than a year ago and perhaps you no longer think that way. I will respect that restriction on quoting old stuff and I aplaud any headway you may have made in seeing some truth in matters Spiritual. So, in that light, let us proceed into the undiscovered territory.

"Unfortunately, the only evidence we seem to have for soul or spirit or mind is what "masters" tell us. Most of us recognize the difference between living things and dead things, especially those things that move about and grow and change. And many of us wonder at what the *force* behind that difference really is. But the only definitions of that force, as far as I can tell, are all these "mental constructs" that Chris has mentioned.

"Personal persuasions, perhaps based on reading what others have thought, are our only ways of knowing the meaning and essence of soul and spirit and mind. It's like we all have a notion of these things, and hope there is some validity to them, but we haven't been able to verify their existence beyond the philosophical arena.
I live in hope that we can do that verification someday. Until then, it's a personal experience we can only talk about. That shouldn't dissuade us from the conversation. But it should make us hesitant to use the word "truth" about things we only imagine and think about."

Codewords and mumbo-jumbo rarely work to capture such people's attention. Both Science and Religion traffic in codewords and mumbo-jumbo."

Obviously these are sections I have lifted from a range of posts and it may be argued that they are out of context. In the interest of fairness I invite you to clarify your own beliefs and it might be helpful to do so by answering a few questions which I have listed below.

1. What are your personal thoughts on Deepak Chopra and his teachings?

2. Which of Deepak’s books and tapes have you actually read or listened to.

3. Do you believe in a God?

4. Do you believe in a Soul?

5. What is your understanding of the notion of Spirit?

6. Do you believe we manifest everything?

7. Do you believe we manifest our personal reality and if yes how?

8. Do you believe we are machines?

9. Do you believe we have free will?

10. Do you believe that "life" is a cosmic accident?

11. Do you believe there is life elsewhere in the Universe.?

12. If yes, do you believe in UFO’s and interstellar travel.?

13. Do you believe in ghosts?

14. Do you believe in parapsychology, i.e. healing by touch, long distance healing, telepathy, astral travel, the Tarot system.

15. Do you believe in love?

There is no need for detailed answers. In some cases a yes or a no will do. However, if you wish to elaborate, please do? The rest of you can play along too, if you like, but I ask Dave to try and keep the debate for the moment between the two of us so we can establish a stream of consciousness.

I hope that’s okay with you,Dave. Anything you would like to do differently I can be flexible about.

Carol, some time ago (months?) there was an issue here about your ability to demonstrate "unconditional love" and I was very strong on the side that you didn't do that.

Will you accept that I see your latest posts to be strong evidence that you really are capable of that? I sense your being pulled to "take sides" and to favor one group over another, or even worse, to favor one individual over another. You have resisted that temptation admirably and I just wanted you to know that I have seen that. What's more relevant: I praise you for it!

You're walking the talk these days.

Carol

I didn't mean to imply that I thought anyone was not okay :-) Just that the way certain people "talk" stikes me as not being open to discussion --...whatever---as you say, they are okay too! :-) Just because I might find someone hard to relate to, doesn't mean they are not okay by any stretch! I'm sure they are relieved to know that I have thus pronounced --ha ha--just kidding.

As for the argument being on the forum, as I said it is interesting...but more so for my "nosey" side--as I said, I feel like I'm privy to something I shouldn't be...but there is always something to learn...like maybe how to use that scroll thingee ;-) if I deem it necessary....

I would love to hear of your realization of oneness!! I'm hoping for such an actual realization vs just my thinking it's so...

Peace! Cathy

Wow Dave,you as allways seem so centered ,if people would just listen instead of allways wanting their soap to be the center of attention,and you know who you are ,and be silent for a while they would be more accepting of others here instead of allways trying to get everyone over to their beliefs. You and Peggy allways leave everyone open to their choice ,but as I see it if anyone's faith or beliefs are merely questioned and they are not at all anchored in what they believe that is when all the static occurs. I will say this Bob what is your problem ?your bliss bubble is very thin and that was a judgment.You still have to live in this world and get along with people unless you are going to ascend soon. Cathy thank you for your words of wisdom. and allways there is Carol you are genuinely a good soul. Where is Phoenix?TO you allways know when to pop in so pop. in. Bob hers one lesson for today try practicing what you have learned not parts that suit you all of it .Now I am the teacher just kidding of course but it seem to me a lot of emotion is being dealt with here and thast tells me you people really care a lot or you would not bear you souls to the world. all of the world to see so here is a big hug for everyone and all my love .

Dave, I'll get back to you in a short while.

I hope my biography isn't based entirely on your recollections.

Ashleigh Brilliant

Peggy: "Hadi, I consider it to be very inappropriate when you ask why I am mad, I tell you in detail and then you say that I'm mad about something else and have been for a long time."

I am still waiting for just one peice of evidence.

You also said : "How can you possibly ever be clear in what you say when you attribute motives and feelings to me that I have not had?"

In view of all the slander I am enduring from you on a daily basis I find this statement hugely amusing and ironic.

I don't think you are mad with me anymore. In fact, clearly you have proved that beyond a doubt. Your honesty and candour are overwhelming and insightful. I think you have made it very clear how you really feel about me and while it has taken me by surprise I can see that you have been totally rational about it all. I think that since you do not wish to be friends with someone with my terrible personality traits which you have so clearly "proved" to be real, I will have to let go of my need for your friendship. I accept and honour your decision to end the friendship and I hope that will be the end of the matter. I suggest you take all appropriate steps to ensure we no longer have any contact with each other and out of respect I shall do the same. Clearly as a "man" I am not capable of fulfilling your criteria of humanity. I once heard someone say that some feminists are the worst sexists of them all, but clearly this doesn't apply to you since you treat all the men equally and with Grace.

just kidding with the winky eye down there on the mistakes thingy. i do make 'em, and embrace them actually. i don't want to seem insincere, here, either. i am aware that emotions are running high and some are being hurt by the things being written here. i am just trying to remain aware that we are all One and should love all aspects of ourselves. i'm sure there are others that may not necessarily agree with this but that is ok. to them i send love and a wish for peace and happiness in their lives. the wish comes from within because the realization of our Oneness was the supreme moment in my life and from that moment on it has been effortless for me to love you all. Namasté

wow! Cathy! loved your post and i agree that Dave and Peggy are OK! i feel that Bob and Hadi, etc, etc, etc, are too, tho. we all make mistakes (me included) ;) but there is room for all of us here. i hope no One leaves. personally, i don't mind their issues being discussed here, tho, i always find little jewels in every post. your post was a diamond mine, tho. thanks for sharing.

Dick, I have yet to address you because I had this sneaky feeling that others (besides Bob) might have been thinking we were the same person. I had even posted links here before to "The Skeptic's Dictionary" (a magnificent website!) and was pretty sure others would connect those facts and make an unwarranted assumption that we are the same.

Now that it should be clear we are not the same, I just wanted you to know that I like your style! You've had some great contributions here.

well dammit bob, some of us can't afford to spend all that time in the gap!

just because we dress different, don't hold it against us!

see ya tomorrow ;)

Cathy, I really appreciate your supportive words. If you would look back to a year or more ago you could find ample evidence to corroborate Bob's, Hadi's, Terry's, and perhaps others' comments about my being a negative and toxic influence. The only problem with that approach is that you would be labeling and branding me *today* based on past behavior. So, Bob and Hadi and Terry have their reasons for assuming that I still have the same views and ways of expressing them that I did then. It's only natural to assume nothing changes.

However, your response is some positive feedback for me to see that I'm not quite the ogre I have been in the past, and that is good to know. You have quite a knack for looking at *now* as *now* and that ability is a breath of fresh air. It does take some strength to speak up here. It jangles the nerves and makes the pulse a little faster. But when the energy is in tune with your basic feelings, I think it's a good use of the energy to express yourself.

It is time for me to avoid the toxicity, take a break, go do my meditation and bury myself in some books where the masters are focused on something more productive.

To all my dear friends here, my apologizes, you will be missed. I will return when the discussions get more meaningful.

Namaste'

(Yes, I do see part of myself in the likes of Peggy, Dave and Dick Skep - that is why I need to spend more time in the gap)

deepak says "put your attention on the uncertainty"!!

did you know uncertainty is synonym for skepticism? deepak is a skeptic! ouch! that must hurt.

the Law of Skepticism....has a ring to it!

Pssssst! Dick! Tell me who you are! I promise not to tell!

But if you won't fess up, I'm going with Dobbs...

Cathy, I've been meaning to thank you and Patricia for your insights and loving words. They do help me to refocus -- at least for a while. :-)

Patricia, you were the one who saw the emotion behind my initial response to Hadi on why I am angry. Thanks for that.

Um, I like your choice of laws better. But on the Law of Least Effort, I do fine until it gets to the part about defenselessness.

Both Bob and Hadi have referred to the physical violence that they think we might take against them.

Why is that? If you knew me better, Bob, you would know that I am very opposed to violent behavior of any kind. Even after twenty years as a teacher in inner-city high schools, I remain opposed to ever striking anyone.

One reason that I have been able to be so centered on non-violence is that I never hesitate to express my opinion. I hope that you can see the connection between the two.

Also, if you knew me better, you would know that I am compulsively honest. So all you had to do was ask me if I were Dick Skep and I would have told you. No, I am not Dick Skep or Buttcrack either. But when they are picking on someone else (and not me), they seem to make a lot of sense.

I will admit to being the "Soma" who protested the disparaging remarks made about Hadi's ethnicity. But that is all that I will admit to! Your chance to get me to confess to any other anonymous posts has passed!

Goodness gracious! I realize I am relatively new here, but want to voice my support of Peggy and Dave. I, personally find their posts very level-headed and clear and reasonable (aside from this recent spat going on :-) But then that is the nature of arguing, typically --sticking to one's guns--which both "sides" are doing here, IMHO. No judgment from me on that--I can't cast stones ;-))

Truth be told, I find a few other posters more opinionated and abrasive than Peggy and Dave--who I see as rational, articulate people. And while they might question stuff--such is the nature of being rational, eh? :-) But, likes and dislikes aside, I agree with Dick (yikes! ;-)) and Dave that this forum is an open one and anyone is welcome. If some posters do not "believe" what the majority here do, that is okay. And if we fight about stuff, it is likely that we haven't learned enough ego-lessness, and should therefore welcome the opportunity to learn that. Same with beliefs--so not everyone here is coming from the same place. Deepak talks about pretty much all levels of being and, as such, dealing with all levels is part of the game. Those of you who "know" more than the rest of us, might learn a thing or two from Geoff who is the only one that strikes me as really wise--I know I can't say what you other guys know--but it is in your sharing that you lose people :-) Geoff is so gentle and loving and compassionate in how he questions or shares what he knows. I think if you sincerely want to share the wonderful stuff you know with others, you'd have more care about how you say things :-)And less attachment to how it is received (tho--maybe not--Jesus seemed to get upset and frustrated at times with people not understanding??) Now, maybe it's different strokes for different folks--some people might need to have things "yelled" at them --so to speak-- for them to listen....so be it. I'm okay with letting those whose style I don't like have their say :-) But certainly there is room for questioners and doubters as well as "knowers" and seekers...even buttcrack and Dick--and other anonymous posters--I don't agree with the style, but there they are :-) As you guys know, we are all one, so we would do well to make peace with ourselves, and whatever "dark" sides we might have. And for those, who don't think we are one--learning to live harmoniously with divergent people is still a key skill. I am reminded of Jesus' statement to love thine enemies---I wondered about that for sometime--how to do it etc...but then I read somewhere that the statement did not say we had to like our enemies but to love them--it's not about feelings and personalities. But simple recognition of our common link, our common divinity or humanness...a matter of choice

I hope that we can leave the fighting behind us and the attempts to "prove" who's right or at fault--there is often merit and fault--at least a little--on both sides...I hope also that if the "fight" must go on, that it do so privately...I think there has been input enough from others to give those involved "outside" input.

The false is simply proving itself false...Cathy

we're on the same wavelength Peggy.

anyone who has spent thousands of dollars on Deepak's seminars whould remember at least a pinch or two of the lessons taught. Maybe the message is to look down on others because they aren't as spiritually advanced in the observer's eyes. I don't know as I've never had the bucks to burn on Deepak.

I have bought a few book of his though. Maybe in the advanced classes it's just assumed that you've read them. I just came across this little ditty:

APPLYING THE LAW OF LEAST EFFORT

I will put the Law of Least Effort into effect by making a commitment to take the following steps:

(1) I will practice Acceptance. Today I will accept people, situations, circumstances, and events as they occur. I will knot that this moment is as it should be, because the whole universe is as it should be. I will not struggle against the whole universe by struggling against the moment. My acceptance is total and complete. I accept things as they are this moment, not as I wish they were.

(2) Having accepted things as they are, I will take Responsibility for my situation and for all those events I see as problems. I know that taking responsibility means not blaming anyone or anything for my situation (and this includes myself). I also know that every problem is an opportunity in disguise, and this alertness to opportunities allows me to take this moment and transform it into a greater benefit.

(3) Today my awareness will remain established in Defenselessness. I will relinquish the need to defend my point of view. I will feel no need to convince or persuade others to accept my point of view. I will remain open to all points of view and not be rigidly attached to any of them.

**********

Of course, if that doesn't work, one can always come out swinging with their Zen stick and try to banish someone they see unfit from a place that is sheer anarchy in the first place.

Toxic people? Are you practicing non-judgment, Bob?

Deepak also suggests that you ask yourself what you can learn from this experience.

And, of course, you might consider The Law of Detachment. As Deepak says,

"When you understand this law, you don't feel compelled to force solutions. When you force solutions on problems, you only create new problems. But when you put your attention on the uncertainty, and you witness the uncertainty while you expectantly wait for the solution to emerge out of the chaos and the confusion, then what emerges is something very fabulous and exciting."

Do you really believe that, Bob?

bob f, if you had a genuine interest in learning your mind would be more open to differing points of view

and it's not that i don't believe this stuff, it's that i'm skeptical. that's what a skeptic is bob. a skeptic is not the equivalent of a satan worshiper. a skeptic is a seeker bob. what's wrong with that. are you a seeker bob?

Hadi, since I got sidetracked before I could respond to your question about the italicized part of your post being a fair assessment of my views, I will just say "No, it is not."

If you want to select some specific statement I made before when I did list some of my "beliefs," that might be closer to my views than your restatements.

Could we start with something I actually said?

Why yes, Buttcrack, we have e-mail. Do you?

To alleviate any concern that Dick Skep is Dave or Peggy, just be aware that Dick was posting while I was writing my last post. Of course, you're free to assume we can do two things at once.

Bob, thanks for clarifying that your post was "your opinion." I have no intention of handing you your head. But I would like to draw your attention to two places on this page.

One is at the top where it says, "To encourage the exchange of thoughts about Deepak Chopra and his work, we will post your comments, inquiries, and opinions. Please feel free to respond to someone else's comments or questions, or simply post your own."

The other is at the bottom, where it says, "Comments by users are not endorsed by Random House.
The Deepak Chopra Forum is intended to provide a place for the exchange of information, opinions, and comments. Random House does not necessarily endorse, support, sanction, encourage, verify, or agree with the comments, opinions, or statements posted in the Forum. Any information or material placed online, including advice and opinions, are the views of those who post the statements, and does not necessarily represent the views of Random House."

In my opinion, there's nothing in the wording on this page, which might be interpreted as guidelines or rules, that suggests this forum is only for those who endorse, support, or accept as fact, the writings or teachings of Deepak Chopra.

As for taking breaks, I have posted some this month, but the last time I posted was in direct response to Denis in April after he falsely accused me of bahavior that had nothing to do with me. There have been other large gaps in my posting here, since I first posted in August of 1997. (There might have been one or more little things I included in some of Peggy's posts before that.)

Peggy, along with Silvia, Kate, Chris, Kitty, Terry, and a few others, have been posting here since 1996. If you want a real treat in terms of heated arguments and debates, you might try looking back in the early archives. Neither Peggy nor I originated the "toxic negative energy" that seems to come in here from time to time.

As Kereyra recently said, there's nothing wrong with taking breaks, and everyone sees the need for that from time to time.

But I will kindly disregard your invitation to leave, until the time is right for me to do so. If my presence here is offensive to you, I'm afraid I can't really control that. I am sorry you are needing less opposition to your own views to be able to speak freely. But I don't see that as my issue.

I can see the need for some of you to band together to preserve the appearance that you have an inside track on spirituality, and especially Deepak's version of it. The original ideas posted here are as important and as valid as Deepak's or yours, regardless of how rigorously you may wish to deny that. There are others who post here, often anonymously, who express similar attitudes of caution and skepticism that Peggy and I express. Perhaps their choices not to post as often are motivated by having their own ways of dealing with those issues. Perhaps they are not as concerned about the "other side of the coin" that you and the others you mention want to avoid discussing. Maybe they will express for you why their posts aren't singled out as "being the center of attention" that you claim we are.

Ever since Terry mentioned the 54000 posts, and Hadi echoed the same attitude, I have wanted to point out that if a post counting were to be taken that the two of them, along with you, Denis, Carol, and a few others would have a healthy share of that count. Why is it that nobody seems to count or hold it up to their notice that there are quite a few more regulars here than just Peggy and me?

I will assert that as soon as the exchanges here begin to bore me that I will move on to other things. So as long as there are interesting and provocative subjects being discussed I'm likely to continue to insert my opinion where I feel it might be worth the effort. But the quickest way to get rid of me is just to have the majority of posts be little more than regurgitations and rehashings of stuff I have seen before. When the others who have minds of their own quit posting, so will I.

In My Opinion Again

I am becoming convinced Dick Skep and Peggy/Dave R are one and the same. They always have the same skeptical views, they are always on the same side, they all lack a basic understanding of spirituality and they all are very, very toxic. As far as I am concerned, it would be very nice if Dick Skep went elsewhere as well.

Dick Skep - I am seriously considering going elsewhere to avoid your and the Rushing's toxicity. However, I have a genuine interest in learning where you are nothing but a muckraker. It would make more sense for you to go bother some other group since you don't believe in this stuff anyway. Do you want the website address for the Jehovas Witnesses???

and what a piece (of?) that was bob

let's round up everyone who doesn't believe the way you do and ban them from posting

everyone thinking the same thoughts. how conducive to learning that would be!

i don't know where your head is but someone should sure hand it to you

if you already "know it" then why don't YOU take Deepak's advice and STAY AWAY!

In My Opinion

At the risk of having my head handed to me again, I am going to speak my piece.

This Forum is open to all but its central focus is meant to be on furthering knowledge of spirituality and the works of Deepak Chopra.

Peggy (and Dave to a little lesser extent) have had their own agenda for many moons. In general, it has been to muckrake, be skeptics, make themselves the center of attention and be disruptive of any meaningful diagogue on the topic of spirituality. They have over the years gotten in major wars with numerous participants - it seems every major fight here always involves the two of them and a third party. Peggy and Dave are always in the center of the disruption (or better put, they are the center of the disruption). There never seems to be any real fights here between other participants.

Both Peggy (and Dave again to a lesser extent) do not exhibit any of the signs of really understanding the spirituality this Forum is designed to address. In fact, Deepak advises us to stay away from people who are always negative, disruptive and toxic - the classic definition of the two. It is for this reason Hadi, Denis and myself among others have take breaks periodic breaks from participating. Even Terry O seems to hunker down when the two of them are at it.

In my opinion, it would be best for all of us if Peggy and Dave took their toxic negativity elsewhere !!!!

I liked very much the speech he gave in Buenos Aires about the pleasure in our jobs.I would like to know when is his next visit to my country.Thank you.

don't you people have email?

Hadi, I consider it to be very inappropriate when you ask why I am mad, I tell you in detail and then you say that I'm mad about something else and have been for a long time.

You are mistaken.

How can you possibly ever be clear in what you say when you attribute motives and feelings to me that I have not had?

Don't try to be an authority on what I think--especially when I have gone to some trouble to tell you carefully, openly and clearly.

Try to be a little clearer in what your own thoughts are when you express them.

Goodnight ALL.

As for the sexist issue, I'd prfer to leave it until later after the debate. Suffice to say Ithink you are a sexist. Most men. As are most women. Big deal. I didn't say that you think women are just a big hole. That would have been agressive rather than just my opinion. I think you know, deep down that it is and has been an issue with you. You've admitted as much. It is not a charge that has ever been levelled at me by anyone I know personally. Most of my friends are women and the closest accusation to sexism that has been thrown at me by a friend, and I'm not talking cyber friend, has been an accusation by one woman that I was homophobic. This was from a very politically correct bi-sexual female friend. If that ain't an oxymoron I don't know what is!

So I hope you will engage in the debate and not palm me off like you have done before. I won't be aggressive, just clear.

Well, Dave that's rich. But you see, we have already established that Peggy and Kate have been very angry with me, aggressive and hostile towards me for a loooooong time. I have been the recipient of that for a long time now. Not just these past few days. I asked for an explanation and I received the admission along with a release of some of that simmering anger. Let it come. So your latest post laying it on me is a little rich. I have not been sending aggressive messages to either of you until yesterday. But really it's very passive. A little dry irony, is all.

The thing is, Dave, I've sat quietly and listened to you for about a thousand posts and I have heard your debate about Truth and about Belief. I've wanted to join in but refrained because of all this other unfinished business that kept getting in the way of my being able to talk, without a certain couple of ladies whispering "he's sad... he's got a problem... he's in denial...".

In any case, I thought there were fine contributions made by Cathy and especially Chris and Geoff. All I could offer was few relevant "quotes" but I know you don't usually even bother to read quotes, so you may have scanned past them. I also thought Terry was economically and perceptively poignant and Bob too had some interesting convictions he tried to share with you.

So, I've just been itching to talk to you about this.

Let's put our playful hostilities aside for a while. I'm putting mine just outside the room so it's out of my reach and I won't be able to conveniently grab for it, okay?

Here is the thing. When I read your various posts I got some impressions which I would like to run by you. I got the impression that, at best, you felt that Truth, God, Spirit, Soul, that these matters were things that only the Masters could know and that you and I could never know these things. At Worst, you seem to consider the whole thing as a lot of Malarky. A lot of nonsense in the first place which people believe in because they need to believe in something. That the Masters themselves were just charlatans and that people who believe in these things are essentially deluded. You rely on logic, reason, science and empirical knowledge for your beliefs. That until science has a way of proving a God, we just don't know.

Would you say that the italicised section of this post is a fair assesment of how you feel about Truth and about the Spiritual beliefs that are prevalent here?J

Dave!

Lol! Sorry Peggy. I thought it was quite clear. I was trying to explain. Perhaps you haven't read the post correctly, perhaps my meaning wasn't clear enough. I think you have a point I could have worded that a little more clearly. If you look again Peggy, you wiil see:

"but I was trying to give Bob a little perspective on his own views."

and later...

"Although I didn't manage to prevent them from moving on, I think I succeeded with Bob,"

I meant it was Bob who I found very hostile towards the Muslims and my message was for Bob. Because you weren't there in real time I think when you went back to read it you didn't make the same associations. I thought Bob had been very agressive to the Muslims and my comments in your post about how we should treat them is an explanation of what I was trying to relay to Bob, back then. The Allah post was entirely for his and I think Pat's benefit, whom had followed up with more remarks about how bad the Muslims treat their women. I was talking to and about Bob F Peggy. I felt he handled them badly and I was trying to explain this in that post to you. I think I managed to let Bob know and I think many people who were here live will agree that it was not directed at you. If I was unclear, I'm sorry. But, you read all the original stuff out of context. That's how simply misunderstanding happen when someone reads a lot of posts real fast. As for your other vague aspersions, "you said it here, you said it there, you said it everywhere". B/S

Now the archiving has started in vein, I see Dave. Just as predicted.

On Wednesday, September 27, 2000, Hadi (01@onetel.net.uk)@212.67.99.100 said:

Hello, {{Peggy}}.

Yes, it is sad, but it isn't my only observation of modern relationships. I have known of one or two healthy, happy, uncompromised relationships, but the vast majority, in my experience, seem sad. The statistics speak for themselves.

We can highlight some notable ones, Taylor and Burton, Diana and Charles, Paula Yates and Michael Hutchins, well, almost any relationship you'd care to examine in Hollywood. In politics there's been quite a few failed relationships too. But even when we look beyond the failed relationships at the ones that stick at it. The ones that endure. How many of those are really about love, companionship, friendship, respect and honour always. How many of those are truely happy. You and Dave are very lucky to have such a healthy relationship.

=======

By my calculations, Hadi, we have one more day before this post is a month old. What has changed in this month's time for you to have done the 180 on Peg and me?

On Sunday, October 1, 2000, DaveR (Hadi)@209.86.50.241 said:

Hadi, the candor and insight in your posts about Grace and relationships and all the rest have been inspirational. There are so many similarities and so many differences in how our lives have progressed.

Now that Cathy has asked you for it, would you favor us with a description of your Unity experience?

Believe it or not, I know exactly what you meant about that abrupt change that occurred with you in the furniture-smashing and seeing yourself in the mirror. I'm sure I can't recall the circumstances in my own experience as well as you have yours, but I know similar things have happened to me. I wouldn't be surprised if all of us could connect with that to some degree. Sometimes changes take protracted periods to be noticed. Other times, they're instantly recognized. Most of mine are the slow kind.

"Amazing Grace" is one of my favorite songs, especially played on the pipes, and I usually choke up hearing it. I choked up reading the words, and at the choice to summarize your relationship with it. Beautiful!

===========

If there are earlier posts in recent times where I addressed or mentioned you, Hadi, I haven't located them yet. This was the first one I can recall since maybe January. I could be wrong.

TO

Yes, I donated my cup of food today--as I do everyday :-) And donated trees, and rainforest and care for children with AIDS as well :-) I intend to do my Christmas shopping from the businesses that support these sites :-)

The karma is for sheep post by Dick was interesting, wasn't it? I think he has a point--but only if we equate our understanding of karma with nonaction...someone mentioned a quote by the Dalai Lama (maybe I did ;-)) --"It is not enough to be compassionate--we must act." It seems one of the paradoxes to accept the world as it is as perfect, but yet try to alleviate suffering, save rainforests etc...but that's how I see it. Just seems like the "right" thing to try to leave the world a "better" place...for me at least :-)Did you check out my newsletter?

Blessings! Cathy

On Wednesday, October 25, 2000, Hadi (01@onetel.net.uk)@212.67.112.87 said: Hi, Dave. I took a look at your list too. A straightjacket for the Soul!

Hadi, ever since this post yesterday, I have seen nothing but negative comments to and about me whenever you have mentioned my name, my posts, or my opinions.

Just what is the nature of your beef with me?

I tried cutting and pasting your responses to Piebald into a text file to see if I could match question to answer and I must admit to being confused. So, rather than trying to solve that particular puzzle, I thought I'd just ask you straight out.

And if you want to address any of those things I listed under my "beliefs" I'm willing to discuss any and all of them with you.

Also, if you want to go digging further back in the archives for things I may have said that put you off or bothered you, you may have to look way back. I haven't been posting recently until earlier this month. However, I am willing to try to answer any reasonable question, or respond to any reasonable observation you may have for or about me.

But as a matter of courtesy, I would ask that you address your comments to or about me to me instead of the oblique references about me in your comments to others. I resent being treated as your "classic example" to prove some point.

If you can deal with me one-to-one, Hadi, I'm willing to try to clear anything up that's not clear.

Frankly, Hadi, I have been reticent in being specific about what you need to learn about gender issues because I can see that you are still in the flatlands. This is BIG STUFF and you are not ready for it. You just don't make the grade yet. You don't know how many ignorant sexist remarks that I have let slide without calling them to your attention. But from time to time I do have to intercede for purposes of clarification.

Now I know that may sound arrogant and condescending to you, Hadi. AND IT IS!!!

Hadi said:

"I also object to false accusations, slander, bullying, threatening, name calling, rudeness, bigotry, violence (which includes all of these), abuse, selfishness, greed, sloth, vengefulness, vanity, indifference and LIES."

So why don't you stop?

I'm curious about why you didn't admit to your false accusation in implying that I treated the Moslems with no compassion or that I engaged in political attacks on them and drove them away. The message that contained those accusations was addressed to me.

At least two of us have addressed your sexist views elsewhere. Even recently someone else pointed out a sexist comment here at the forum. Most of your comments have been in private.

Unlike you, my husband is no longer sexist in his thinking. He grew because he not only listened, he heard.

Ha ha! Sorry Pegs. That was my post. I put your name in the box by mistake or something happened in Cyber world. Probably to hurried with dinner calling. Yes, I knew the comment was at me, as you can see.

I am curious as to why this post was directed at me?

"You see, Hadi, the truth is that I was no where near a computer while the politics of the Moslems were being discussed."

I never said you were. I have, however, asked for clarificationon your sexist remark about five times now. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last post with my name on it was not mine.

The comment about the giraffe was directed at Hadi not at the Moslems.

I remember very clearly, Peggy, including your comment about the giraffe. So, perhaps you can understand my puzzlement over this comment "I don't choose to be friends with anyone who seems to view women as being an appendage."? - and perhaps you would like to explain it to me. I'm listening, and Grace just called me to dinner, so excuse the pause.

The Truth About What I Said About Islam or to the Islamics

These are the sum total of the posts that I made while the Moslems were posting:

"Prashanthi: I bow. I embrace.

In my own thinking, I have two approaches to the walls of religion that sometimes divide us. One is the way that Prashanthi has described. I believe it to be the higher path.

But I also recognize my need to be more informed about the world's great religions. The recent posts here about Islam have sent me searching for information.

One thing that I have realized is that I have had a stereotype of a Moslem in mind -- a fanatic with a sword in one hand and the Koran in the other. I bristle when all Christians are lumped together within the stereotype of the Bible-thumping, hellfire and damnation preaching fundamentalists. But I have been silly enough to treat people of other faiths the same way.

One thing that I really like about Islam is how the Koran is reinterpreted in the light of new scientific discoveries. Another is the emphasis on racial equality and, for most, peace and harmony.

I was delighted also to find that one of my favorite quotations is from Islamic literature:

'If thou hast two loaves of bread, sell one and buy white hyacinths for thy soul.'

Peace, merriment, and light..."

-----------------------------------------------

"The prayer of Rabiah, an Islamic saint:

'Oh God, if I worship Thee from fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship Thee from hop of Paradise, shut me out of Paradise, but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, then withold not from me Thine everlasting beauty.'"

--------------------------------------------------

I hardly think that would discourage them from posting here!

---------------------------------------------------------

After my vacation, I posted the following. It was meant to be a humorous post and only one line was directed at the Moslems who had already left:

"Wow! Did you ever try catching up on three weeks worth of posts at once? Things that I've just read and which are fresh in my mind may not be so easily referenced in your memories. So rather than attempting to express all of the responses that I've been writing in my mind, I will just post an assortment of responses. Please choose the one(s)which you think best speak(s)to you...

[The fourth thing I listed was this] 4. Unclean? What do you mean when you say that menstruating women are unclean? That is a little like calling sex "bumping uglies." --------------------------------------------------

Finally, when one of the Moslems returned, I greeted her or him with the traditional Moslem greeting which means Peace be on you. I couldn't find the exact post. If I added onto that greeting anything else, then I will take responsibility for it.

You see, Hadi, the truth is that I was no where near a computer while the politics of the Moslems were being discussed.

Piebald, good questions. I’ll reply in order.

No. I wanted a message I could understand.

No.

I didn’t, that was a conversation with her husband.

Absolutely and he has been carpeted with that accusation many times by others including Kate and his own wife, Peggy; but somehow she continues to be "friends" with him. Ironic, don’t you think? Never underestimate the power of denial.

What, you mean like "I don't choose to be friends with anyone who seems to view women as being an appendage."?

Answer no. I still haven’t received an answer to this charge or been referenced to what little bit of dialogue these individuals are referring to in order to justify their need to "win". Inevitably I keep getting the pat evasive response, "listen". Believe me I have heard so much my ears are bleeding. I’m just hearing stuff that seems to be eluding others because I know what this argument is really about. "Pride". Hurt pride from three months back. That’s all. Ego tends to cling to these things. All the rest seems like rather transparent dressing, that’s why my questions go unanswered. I spent the best part of a thousand posts listening and I have also listened to the gaps. I have learned some very important lessons about people I thought I could trust. A great deal of the synchronistically confusing and disconnected events in my life now make more sense. The mist is rising. This was what the Universe was trying to warn me about. This experience was the "message". Now I can move forward.

It seemed obvious to me, too, but I didn’t realise anyone else had sensed it. Thanks for confirming it wasn’t "just in our heads". But I already knew that.

An ordinary guy who sometimes wishes he had never opened "that" door, because life was normal before. But THAT is the point. That's why it had to be me. I AM YOU.

The power of suggestion can permeate even a perceptiive mind like yours.

Refer to any of Dave’s posts on Truth and Belief.

That would seem like an oxymoron. Ever been to a gathering of University Dons or intellectual heavyweights, somewhere with people who made you feel inadequate? Out of your depth. Where everyone made a show of their wisdom? Hang on, that sounds familiar…

I just tell it as I see it. I’ll let others make their own minds up. I have no problem with people thinking I may be wrong, I object to people resorting to insults as a means of expressing that. I don’t think that is very intelligent. I also object to false accusations, slander, bullying, threatening, name calling, rudeness, bigotry, violence (which includes all of these), abuse, selfishness, greed, sloth, vengefulness, vanity, indifference and LIES.

Patricia and Cathy, nice posts. Unfortunately I don’t know how to be anyone else. I lost that skill when my ego dropped away. So this is me. I should expect a great deal more conflict in the future. Hell, maybe I’ll end up with a bullet in my head, or thrown out the country on trumped up charges of tax evasion or have my past splattered all over the newspapers or one day even crucified. I will try and console myself that people like me with very forceful and challenging messages tend to go against the prevailing tide, and I consider myself in good company wherever I am. I hope you will come to understand me in time, but the models that most of you carry in your heads of a Mystic are not "it". I do, however, believe that I am in transition. That I am continuing to metamorphose and it is creating some powerful tensions within me which may be spilling out. But I have neither been insulting, rude or nasty to anyone. I believe I am acting honorably. The problems are to do with how others are experiencing me, not what I am saying. For me, there are other dimensions at play that others cannot even know, but my guess is that at least Geoff and Terry might have come across this before in their experiences. But perhaps not. Maybe it is unique to me, but I doubt that.
Patricia, I accept the arrogance comments, I have already accepted that I make some people feel inadequate therefore unequal. It is not conscious. But, I had the impression from monosylabic Kate that you too felt I was "sexist", not arrogant. Arrogant I can deal with. Is this true and is that how you regard me? that’s all. I’m not about to get into an argument about it, and I’m not going to defend it, I just want to know what could have caused this perception. How else am I supposed to learn if I do not know the error?

"He who knows not,
that the other side of the face

of the King of Light

is the face of the Prince of Darkness,

KNOWS NOT ME"

The world of "duality"--yin/yang--this's and that's--he said/she said. "Love": the void, gap, peace of mind, etc. are beyond, and beyond, and beyond. (Is that "seven times seven"?)

Hadi, I think that I have hit upon one of our problems. I ask you to read this with your defenses down. It is about me and what I see as a misconception that you have about me.

I am not interested in Mysticism. I don't spend time reading about it. I had to look up Adept and Magus in the dictionary. I am not even a seeker of mystical truths. It's not that I think that I already know it all. It is just that I am content with what I have. (See my list of beliefs. They are basic and simple.)

You are right that I look for flaws in what others have to say. That is a most unbecoming and persistent pattern but I don't know that I even want to change it. I think that it is the result of at least these two things: the unspecific anger that I have felt as long as I can remember and an interest in "factual" truth.

So metaphysics isn't what I was talking about when I said something about wishing that you could learn from me.

I hope this helps.

...but the wondering doesn't keep me up nights! : )

Wow! Looks like you guys were really busy yesterday!

You know Hadi, I don't know if I was manipulated when I first arrived here, could be. I look back at that experience and think that more than anything else, I was living the experience of the forum, trying to see how it worked, looking at things in the "present" without any of the influences you all had then (and I have now). I still appreciate the way people, then and now, try to look for balance, try to remain sane even when others are hellbent in leading us away from introspection, reflection...I take that back...even those people lead us to the road of reflection.

Last week, I attended a Conference. One of the workshops was given by a young, American (i.e. foreign) male teacher. While his topic was interesting, he was a boor. More than abou the topic, I reflected on what I don't want to look like, an unapproachable know-it-all. Since I give a lot of workshops myself, it was an important thing for me to consider.

I sometimes wonder why people do the things they do, what their purpose in life is. I guess some people are here just to make us think about who we are, what we don't want to be, but more importantly, what we DO want to be.

As for offensiveness, none of us HAVE TO STAY and deal with it. If we choose to, that's a different story. Recently, it just got too messy in here for me to handle, and that may happen again. Nothing wrong with taking a break.

I honestly don't understand Skep or Crack, for that matter, sometimes the "he said, she said" is beyond me. I wonder what I'm missing.

I agree Kate, starting with Dick's "world" view.

Cathy, I very much enjoyed Dick's post yesterday that began "Karma is a law for sheep." Some good conversation could come from that, imo. Patricia, thank you for understanding. Carol, :-)

Namaste'

Did everyone donate a cup of food today? Thanks.

Thursday roast beef,
Wednesday soup,
Tuesday string beans,
Monday wash day,
All you hungry brothers,
We wish the same to you.

Somethings to consider when having a disagreement or fight-- there are two sides to every story; it takes two to tango; Life doesn't happen in a vacuum (I don't know if that last one is technically correct :-))

I'm not pretending that I always recognize these things in my own relating to people--at least not at first--but then I do get there eventually. Sometimes I just decide not to tango :-)

Silvia, I second your thought that struggle can be good and Carol your wishes for peace and love to prevail :-)

Dick

Thanks for the apology--I didn't mean harrass in a bad way :-) More like pick on or tease...your posts always have that tone...which is okay, but it makes what I consider a good conversation, difficult ;-)

Cathy

Today is Thursday.

Life at work is like a tree full of monkeys,
all on different limbs at different levels.
Some monkeys are climbing up, some down.
The monkeys on top look down and see a treefull of smiling faces.
The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes.

Don't ever slam the door;
you might want to go back.

- Don Herold

You don't answer my call
With even a nod or a twitch
But you gaze at your own reflection!
You don't seem to see me
But I think you can see yourself.
How can the mirror affect you?

Can you hear me
Or do I surmise?
That you fear me can you feel my temper
RISE.

Do you hear or fear or
Do I smash the mirror.
Do you hear of fear or
Do I smash the mirror?

SMASH!

i'm sitting here staring at the screen wondering what i could say or should say and decided to say nothing, except love to you all and namasté...

Didn't you ask Peggy why she was mad at you? What did you expect in response---hero worship?

You said people have been dragged into this. Have you ever seen that old movie "Some Came Running?"

Why did you do exactly what you said Peggy would do, search the archives and be defensive?

Is Peggy's husband a sexist? (This question is for Peggy too.)

You said that Peggy judges people. Do you?

Why would you say that there has been an "undercurrent of hostility?" It seemed blatant to me.

Are you a Wiseman or a wise guy?

If you know the BIG STUFF why does everyone want you to listen?

Will you tell us how to tell the difference in your post and those of an arrogant person?

Is it possible that you are gifted but arrogant too?

Are you ever wrong?

I've been busy but I thought I'd drop by and check out the room tonight and WOW ! I enjoyed reading all the posts. Some of the writing did remind me of Coolfont (the funny parts). I miss Coolfont's style. If you're in here email me silvia@hostthemost.net

I use to feel sad when I witnessed someone struggling here, but now I realize that where there is struggle there is growth(in relation to this forum).I've learned alot here and I enjoy coming back from time to time to see all my friends/characters of the book. I wish you all a good night.

Did you notice that Hadi said some really nice things about you?

Do you need to feel equal as Hadi says, or are you already equal? Why does it matter what he thinks?

You said that Hadi never wants to learn from you but Hadi says that you are the one who has trouble being a student. Could you both be right?

Hadi said that you are his friend but that his friends don't say things like that. Which is it?

First you need to feel equal and then you think you are an Adept or even a Magus. Have you made up your mind?

Are you a skeptic or a believer?

Are you more innocent than Hadi?

How does it feel to be told by a "friend" that you just don't make the grade?

Do you like Chopra or not?

Are you a Spiritualist or an intellectual?

Are Hadi's experiences superior to yours?

What horrible political things did you say to the Muslims? And why?

ok, cathy, sorry you felt harrassed

boy if i hear that phrase again...
dammit i can't get it out of my head

all the aggression was a reflection of a projection
all the aggression was a reflection of a projection
all the aggression was a reflection of a projection

c'mon everybody! sing along!

if only my tension was a passion for regression
bottled up emotion with a penchant for conjecture
no good pension is a bitchin' transgression

[sounds of knee-slappin' and a couple of yeehaws]

it's all just progression of a fraction of cohesion
clinton's erection may cost gore the election
some friction and some messin' could lead to a collision
when is my position just an action with affection
my impression is the nation is suffering affliction
lack of suction and adhesion leads to a prediction
don't mention education without a new temptation
in a section of an auction without protection

repeat chorus:
all the aggression was a reflection of a projection
all the aggression was a reflection of a projection
all the aggression was a reflection of a projection

slowly fades out...

Dear Dad,

Sorry I had to write you such a long letter, I did not have time to write a shorter one... ;-)

Dick

You said "cathy, i thought we WERE having a real conversation i'm crushed that you got nothing out of it"

I'm sure you are crushed, Dick ;-)Be that as it may, I guess I have to break it off with you--there there, don't cry :-) You'll find another (one to harrass ;-)), I'm sure...

Patricia

My husband is from La Paz, but I've been to Cochabomba--he has family members in different places. I haven't been there since '92...I like La Paz the best, myself--Mount Illimani--awesome!!!

As for all this other stuff going on...wow! I had been musing on Hadi's response to my smiley face question, and had come to post something in response--what a tussle! But I feel like it's about stuff that I have no knowledge of and should therefore not comment on...however...

Hadi

Well, I am glad to hear that you were in fact not angry with me. Not because I care that much, one way or the other what you think of me, but because I don't mean to upset/hurt/criticize people...and I felt that my opinions about you and Grace were just that--my opinions, and I should have respected that it bothered you or was inaccurate. But, you said in your post

"They influenced Cathy and caused her, I think, to lose it by implying nasty things about my character and insinuating that I was being aggressive when all the aggression was a reflection of a projection. I know Cathy has sincere regrets. She got swept up in it and probably wondered what happened in that burst of psychic energy."

I just want to be clear that my regrets were only about that one episode where I feel I overreacted, and about what I felt in retrospect that I really shouldn't have commented on in public/on the forum. I do not feel like I was influenced by anyone--you and I had had some similar "confrontations" similar to what I hear being talked about now...that was what had influenced me--which is my own doing, I know.

I just don't know--I agree that this medium does not always work well--a lot of stuff gets lost that would otherwise influence discussion--for good or ill :-) I have personal opinions of several of you involved in this "scene"...but I also feel like I really don't know any of you that well to jump in here :-) Also, I am trying to take Geoff's advice and not be too attached to what people might say about me or their "beliefs"--which includes opinons of others :-) And I agree with Hadi that it might be good to just listen to the messages without attaching them to a personality. Although, I will also say that you attract more flies with honey--Hadi, you seem to know that your personality sometimes rubs people the wrong way...if you are sincere in wanting to share the "BIG STUFF"--and I would love for you to do so--you might want to understand what it might be about your personality that people have trouble with. I don't think people just get upset ("There is so much I haven't told, haven't shared, simply because these very experiences I have of people getting upset indicates to me how unready you are for the really BIG STUFF. ") from hearing about big ideas--not if you share it gently. Hell-who knows? I think people either feel peace and love and acceptance or are a bit fearful in the presence of truth (I'm thinking of Jesus and his sharing)...but that doesn't stop the truth from being shared. Some will reject what you might say, others might embrace it, others might think it's nice for you, but not for them...

Anyway, I am rambling...I have work to do...honestly, I feel like maybe you guys should handle or decide what to do privately?? Just a thought :-)

Wishing you all resolution and moving on...but understanding how all sides feel, because all sides seem to feel misunderstood or unacknowledged...been there :-) Cathy

Hadi, I have absolutely nothing personal to add to the ongoing discussion you are engaged in. One reason I rarely post here {and there are many} is that I refuse to ever get involved in the "mud-slinging" that sometimes goes on. I do not believe people come here to be "taught" by anyone. They come to share their thoughts and their journeys about things that perhaps they do not have an audience for elsewhere. This is not true of myself. You have often shared sensitive and insightful wisdom and I respect you for that, but so have many others. There is no hierarchy of sages here, each persons thoughts are of equal value and imo, reflect their sincerity. Many of the forum participants have given me cause to reflect and often admire their openness. They have also made me laugh with great links to cartoons or stories. When this happens I always whisper a prayer of thanks. I think it would be very helpful Hadi if you were able to follow Kate's advice....."listen". We respect and like you. Some people obviously don't feel like they are valued as equals and their feelings are valid. This is all I will say about this. Please accept this as it is intended, in a spirit of love. Thanks.

"Everyone is out of step but Johnny."

hey! i luv apu too!

you connecticut livin', snet.net isp havin' bigot!

So I repeat:

"I fully accept that all of [my long response to you] may simply be misinterpretation on my part. But in the end, my interpretation is all that I have to go on. I acknowledge that the same is true for you.

Any questions? If so, I won't be inclined to answer them unless you show a basic understanding of the previous paragraph. If not, then so be it."

Ah! But he can write a coherent sentence and you can't. So what does that make you?

you towel headed sand boogie, camel eating, apu loving 7 eleven clerking scammer..hey, weren't you the dick in short circuit....scammer

the tribal council has spoken

hadi, you've been voted off the island

please, your zen stick, give it to me now

No. I don't want or intend to go into feelings here that have developed over a lengthy time. I wrote privately to you once that were we face to face, I would put my finger to my lips and whisper, "Listen." I still feel the same.

"Value your own opinions. Value them enough to reject any others that don't make sense to you, or that disappoint you. You are the owner of your thoughts and opinions. Don't sell them to another, no matter how persuasive that other's appeals may be."

~Dave R October 2000.

You're not one to stir things up, are you Dave?

BTW Kate, my "friends" are saying nothing of the sort.

Anybody else want to step up for a nice pie in the face? Want to dare to assert some opinion or belief and see how quickly you're called a fool or worse? Surely there must be some who're not intimidated to the point of avoiding a post here. After all, this "open forum" is open in the sense that the software will accept any post. Step into the little box and see if the guy can drop you into the water with his next toss. It's only make believe water!

Well, at least you have confirmed the undercurrent of hostility which had nothing to do with my discussion with Cathy. I find it very sad that you are doing all this to get your pound of flesh and that you are trying to drag other people in when you can't answer for your selves. I guess you just can't help judging people. Do you really believe I deserve this?

Patricia: What did you feel, and about what? the last post I received from you was extremely generous, so I'm just trying to understand.

I have to say Kate, I feel exactly the same about you. What is it that you feel the same about. that I am sexist or that my post as Allah was sexist, or what? In any case, the Irish debate also involved you and as far as I am concerned THAT has been the turning point in our relationship. Everything else is an attempt to justify your sense of hurt or anger. So if you are talking about the Allah post, let us discuss it like grown-ups instead of casting aspersions based on whatever it is you are agreeing about. Your views of me in this respect are in startling contrast to everything that went before the Irish political debate. Before I was gifted friend, now I am arrogant, condescending and this latest one which really is proposterous, "sexist". Why don't you throw in Muslim Funamentalist and Child abuser, that's how clearly you are reading me.

I believe you when you say that my long post came over as an aggressive threat.

But I "sat" that class myself, Hadi...quite literally, several times over. My degree was in English, Speech and Communications. I taught communications for a number of years and always included lessons on the distinction between assertive and aggressive statements.

My post was assertive.

So I repeat:

"I fully accept that all of [my long response to you] may simply be misinterpretation on my part. But in the end, my interpretation is all that I have to go on. I acknowledge that the same is true for you.

Any questions? If so, I won't be inclined to answer them unless you show a basic understanding of the previous paragraph. If not, then so be it."

I support Peggy wholeheartedly. When one cannot, does not, hear what is said by friends or even new acquaintances (there are many here), it IS sad. Patricia felt it, quite correctly. Only you, Hadi, are not feeling it. And that is a source of great sorrow to me also. Your spiritual experience/knowledge/wisdom is to me like a fragile flower bud with no sturdy stalk to nurture it into full beauty.

You see, Peggy, to me, even this post of yours comes over as a very aggressive threat. Most of it seems to be based around ego needs. Your need to feel equal translates as your need to feel superior. You have been a teacher, Peggy, in the world and perhaps you have great difficulty in being a student. I actually think, if anything, it is our friendship which has got in the way sometimes. Truely, Peggy, I love you as I do any good human being. More than that. I have had real affection for you as a friend. I think you are a very intelligent woman, but your intelligence isn't important to me. Just as your age, weight or irrational anger has never really mattered. What I have always liked about you is your zest, enthusiasm and personality. I think you have a great sense of humour. I think you are infinitely more likeable than me and probably a good deal more innocent. But, alas it is true, I have never thought of you as a Mystic or a Witch. This has never colored my affection for you. I do accept that you know about a great number of things better than I do, and some things which I don't know at all. But not, I'm afraid, in this area. In Mystical knowledge and experience. Unfortunately these subjects come up a lot in this environment. You would be astounded at how much of what you say, in matters spirirtual, I let go by, even though I find no substance in them. That isn't the point for me. Occasionally, when it matters, when it is something I think matters, I intercede to bring some clarification. This may seem arrogant to you. This may seem condecending. I know. What am I supposed to do if I know so much? If I am a teacher or a parent or a friend, and I see wrong perceptions, wrong thoughts, wrong understandings, I don't make judgements about the person making those wrongs, I try to simply show The Way.

Arrogant though it may sound, I have played very small here in the Forum. There is so much I haven't told, haven't shared, simply because these very experiences I have of people getting upset indicates to me how unready you are for the really BIG STUFF. Here, it's flatland. Always a mixture of beginners class and aspirants, with the odd sprinkling of an adept. But you, Peggy, are demanding, as ego does, to be accepted as an Adept or even a Magus, when you've not yet made the grade. There's much work to be done and the blend of language I've heard in the past 1000 posts where I have largely been observing and not participating, that language is wobbling from skeptic to believer, from Spiritualist to Intellectual, from a critic of Chopra to an advocate of Chopra. I am watching a duality which looks for faults in almost everyone's posts. Then counters those actions with compliments and niceties. Never just letting them be. As to whether we are equal or not, of course we are. Our experiences, however, are not. You post your ideas and I post mine. I like to think people out there have a mind of their own. I hope they will pay more attention to the message than to the messenger, that they will not be judging who is the more superior or the less, but rather that they simply take what information they find useful without judging the personalities. I have no doubt your personality is superior to mine. If my posts make yours feel inferior, that is not my motive. The motive is clarity, truth. Therefore if inferiority is what is sensed and you do not think I am worthy to teach you because I am too "sexist"!!!! ;) Then don't pay any attention. Just please allow me to express myself for those who may want to hear.

As for the other issues and your perception of sexist remarks and your concequent reasons for wanting to distance yourself from such comments and such a person, I am deeply surprised. I also find this latest judgement rather ironic when I consider Dave, the man you are married to. I would like you to speak to Grace some time and ask her if she thinks I am sexist compared to other men. Maybe one day you'll get a chance to do that.

My comments about Western women were perfectly valid. It's not the way I think of them but I was trying to give Bob a little perspective on his own views. Of how an Islamic thinks of the Western woman and why. I was also hoping for a more inclusive approach to the Moslim posters. The "message" is needed much more so in that world, because there they just don't have the access that we do here. So if one comes in, grab them. Embrace them. Let them rant their religious babble. We've been there. Senn that. We know they are victims. Let us show some compassion instead of driving them away with political attacks as soon as they enter the room. Although I didn't manage to prevent them from moving on, I think I succeeded with Bob, certainly others didn't read it as you did.

It is my experience, Peggy, that when someone harbours hostilty towards one, it really doesn't matter what one does or says, it will always be coloured by that hostility until they are prepared to let it go. I feel this is how you have been reading my posts with adversarial and aggressive projection since the Irish thing, which you can't let go. In any case I think you certainly misunderstood the content and the motive of the Allah post which is what, I believe, you are referring to and I think you enflamed my debate with Cathy when it wasn't warrented or deserved. .

This medium really seems to be a bitch for me. So much of what I express is misread and I think it is all down to this perceptual mechanism which is attached to "memories" and "emotions". You and Dave and Kate are the only people on the forum who have heard my voice and spoken to me on the phone. How does your present perception square up to that experience? Honest answers please. Ask yourself, what has changed in the meantime? Could it be you?

Not only am I deeply opposed to the way Islam and most of the world treats its women and children, but I have often voiced my concerns very openly and forcefully here. I am shocked that you have somehow come to the perception and conclusions that fly in the face of reason or experience. You have known me for four years and I can't imagine what would make you think such things, but your voicing them is just devastating to hear. Perhaps you have formed this view out of some of my mini biography in earlier posts with Cathy, but I thought I clearly expressed revultion at the playboy me of the past and a real sense of growth as a man in that area. I'm just stunned Peggy at the things you are saying, and I believe you are only saying them motivated by a need to not seem guilty. Your ego so desperately wants to be perfect and right because of the many imperfections you fear. You will no doubt continue to defend your position in perpetuity now by searching the archives for proof, but my hope is that we can just get along and stop all the defensiveness. If you have difficulty with me considering you a student, I am sorry, but I don't live in "Flatland".

Totally bewildered...

Goodnight.

Peggy, Yes, in answer to your question, I continue to work on behalf of Amanecer, which is an organization caring for over 600 abandoned children and many women. I primarily raise funds through a non-profit Canadian charity which I established called "Friends of Amanecer-Canada" and also provide assistance to people wishing to volunteer to work with the organization. I am deeply commited to this work and was there for three weeks this year so that I can keep current with the work. I also want to say Peggy, in reference to your post to Hadi, that you reflected a genuine sadness and articulated that with gentleness. I also support what you have said. Cathy, Amanecer works only in Cochabamba and I lived there for two years from '91-'93. I love Bolivia and it's people. Where does your husband come from? I have visited most places in the country but Cochabamba is my favourite. I try to return every two years. They have experienced much upheaval lately there but the people are strong and "just can't take it anymore!"

...or two or three or...

face it hadi, you are the sexist, arrogant, ignorant one

every forum has one

Nothing passive in my previous post either.

You said: "Why have you been angry with me for so long, Peggy? I've been trying to work it out. I just can't believe this has to do with the Irish issue we disagreed about some months ago at another sight. But I have had hardly any contact with you, Dave and Kate since that heated exchange, so I can't see that it could be anything else, except perhaps the lack of contact."

If you were really trying to work it out, Hadi, I'm surprised that you haven't asked me privately before this.

Be that as it may, I've been angry with you for a while because I have come to believe that you have no respect for my opinions involving spiritual and cultural matters. I don't particularly expect you to agree with my opinions on those spiritual issues. But it would have been more of an equal relationship if you had asked my opinion from time to time. Somewhere along the way I outgrew a need for anything other than an equal relationship between the two of us.

In thinking back about our disagreement on the Irish issue, I think that we eventually agreed to disagree and that was okay. I could chalk up the personal comments (that I interpreted as condescending) to your anger during that time.

But it is my opinion that you continue to see my own experiences and insights as being inferior to yours. I don't think that you have particularly singled me out for that. But maybe it mattered more to me because we were friends. If I had not cared for you, your opinion of me would not have mattered.

When you did not seem to see the difference in my saying that you were arrogant and in my saying that in my opinion you COME ACROSS to several of us as arrogant -- then I felt that you were still not even bothering to pay attention to what I was actually saying.

I was disappointed to see you stop posting because I think that you have been a good teacher and friend to many of us here. And your posts were missed.

But until you could admit or at least treat me as if I were more than just your student, then I didn't see any point in continuing the friendship.

Further, you have expressed some sexist ideas. I don't know if it is a cultural difference, ignorance of the implications of your language, gamesmanship or what. But it doesn't matter. I know the language of sexism just like an African-American knows the language of bigotry. I don't choose to be friends with anyone who seems to view women as being an appendage.

Further, your comments about the way that Western culture treats women seemed to be preaching to the choir. I can assure you that I am more familiar with the ways that women are treated in Western cultures than you are. Being on the receiving end of sexism is not the same as observing it. Still further, your comment on Western treatment of women seemed to be in response to some comments made about the way that women are treated in Muslim countries -- almost as a defense for that mistreatment. Or, at least, THAT IS THE WAY IT CAME ACROSS.

Also, you don't appear to know Americans well enough to know that we are well aware of the shortcomings of our government and our culture. I don't mind having those shortcomings pointed out but I would personally have preferred that you did it in such as way as to acknowledge that we might have some clue here.

I have answered as honestly as I can and chosen my words carefully.

I fully accept that all of this may simply be misinterpretation on my part. But in the end, my interpretation is all that I have to go on. I acknowledge that the same is true for you.

Any questions? If so, I won't be inclined to answer them unless you show a basic understanding of the previous paragraph. If not, then so be it.

Karma is a law for sheep. We should not wonder that the shepherds advocate it. It is a law for the passive, for those who will not disturb the status quo, who will accept whatever evil is done as "natural" and inevitable. Karma is a law for slaves, for the vanquished. It was not slaves who invented religious dogmas. The masters knew what they were doing. Accept whatever evil happens; strive to be good, i.e., to follow the orders of the masters and to behave in an orderly fashion.

What peasant would think there had to have been a first life which had no past life? How did karma work then? If it didn't work or was not needed in the first life, why should it be needed for other lives? The masters would have had answers. They always do. They are the masters of language. Using only the power of words, they can reconcile inexorable laws with freedom. They can make contradictions appear to be tautologies. And if the masters didn't have the answers, they could always demean those who dared to question what they couldn't understand! It's a mystery and everybody loves a mystery! If that didn't work, there was always death. That usually shuts up the dissident and the troublemaker. Maybe. But what works just as well, if not better, is the promise of eternal bliss. Be good, obey the moral rules, don't go against the grain, accept your role, etc., and eternal bliss will be yours. Disobey and suffer the consequences. The motivation is not much different that the promise of Heaven and the threat of Hell.

i wish only to share the bliss, Hadi.

Hi, Carol. It's an open Forum. Feel free. In any case, you haven't stepped on any toes for a very long time. I bow to that. It is always gratifying to see people grow. It is also sad to see people shrink. We all aim for the kind of balance that seems to keep the rest of the Universe in such perfect harmony.

Peggy: you can always email me with your concerns or whatever it is. I remain open and approachable.

Butt Crack, I have never claimed to be a saint, in fact I have made it plain that I am a waster, flawed, human, ordinary. It is only the stuff that has been revealed to me which is extraordinary and I don't own that, it just IS. I have had a great struggle with it all myself in terms of "why me"?

wow! Hadi! i can't believe i am steping on your lines, again!!! i'm sorry, i am posting without reading!

sorry, Cathy, i meant your name to be where i typed Hadi. i saw his name in your post and carried it with me to my post.

There is no hell, Joel/Skep. Just karma.

or me either, Hadi

For future reference, I was only using the "1" signature on the posts which were pure quotes and were not my own actual words. I have experienced a great deal of hostility recently, particularly from Peggy and Kate whom I thought were my friends. I really don’t know anymore. Oh and of course the usual hostility from Joel and his sister Dick. I felt the messages I was trying to relate were being hi-jacked for reasons I could not understand. Heckling from Joel, Dick and Mike are one thing. But Peggy’s and Karen’s took me quite by surprise. The heckling had gone on for quite a while, "baiting" really. A lot of passive aggressive remarks which seemed rather mean to me when I was trying to persue a quite sincere line of debate with the Forum and especially Cathy about the difficulties of consolidating a relationship with the Spiritual quest. It was getting quite lively, I agree, but Peggy and Karen, kept being aggressive without really contributing to the debate or explaining themselves. Just plain mean is how I experienced it. I had some emails from Kate but when seeking clarificationall I got was cryptic replies which failed to address my original question. They influenced Cathy and caused her, I think, to lose it by implying nasty things about my character and insinuating that I was being aggressive when all the aggression was a reflection of a projection. I know Cathy has sincere regrets. She got swept up in it and probably wondered what happened in that burst of psychic energy. Kereyra was manipulated in similar ways when she first arrived here. Not by you. At that time Denis and, I am ashamed to admit, I were guilty. But I apologised to her as soon as I saw the truth of it and that I had upset her. As did Cathy to me. Thank you Cathy, J and believe me, I wasn’t upset at you, I was upset with Peggy and Kate, but it has still proved to be an important lesson in ways they will never know. I hope that also answers your question Cathy.If you look back to the original exchange and read it rather matter of factly, you will see I said I wasn't angry then. I was a litle startled at your immediate response, but I had also thanked you for your consideration. I realised, however, you were still talking about yourself and your own relationship. Grace is actually quite interested in all the Spiritual stuff, she's just not as involved as I am.

i can feel the flames of hell burning my soul

thanks again for another deomsntration of your vast wisdom

Okay, Joel/Skep. Just remember my words when you pass through that Gate I have already seen.

cathy, i thought we WERE having a real conversation

i'm crushed that you got nothing out of it

it's a truth.

those words mean so little when there is nothing backing them up

this is the only life you have hadi, so you better stop wasting it and letting the belief of an afterlife anesthetize you

as for assuming my intent is negative, 20 lashes with the law of non-judgement for you!

Patricia

Where abouts in Bolivia were you, or did you do work? My spouse is from Bolivia--I've been there twice...beautiful place, though poor :-(

Dick

I don't need to know your motivation...as I said at the start, I was genuinely curious, and trying to understand your wise-cracking, ways...it's obvious you don't want to talk about it, so nevermind :-) Just thought I'd try and have a real conversation with you vs just reading your snide remarks--but, can't be done, apparently--or not by someone like me :-)

Hadi

Nice to have you back--I have to admit, I'm not sure why you had all those smiley faces for me :-) I would've expected more evil glare faces ;-) Don't get me wrong--I'm glad you are smiling...just surprised--unless, of course, you were being sarcastic that I was making sense? ;-) Oh well, regardless, welcome back!

Cathy

Karen, I assume? Or is it Kate? On what basis was I judged?

Joel/Skeppy, it's not an issue for me. It was you who posted the disclaimer. If you get off hiding behind a mask and taking mindless swipes at people, that's your choice. The choices you have made all your life define who you are today and they will also define who you will be in the next life time. Think about that. It's a Truth.

one making usually showy pretenses to knowledge or ability

peggy's mad cuz she found out you were a charlatan

haha...good one peggy! if you have to tell someone you're not clouded by ego projections...well, then you're probably a redneck

hadi, i don't care if you identify me, period. that's your issue.

Patricia, thanks for your response on Deepak Chopra's stance. I had heard him say at one time that something was in the works but I still don't know much about it. Please let me know if you hear anything.

Are you still active in Bolivia? I've switched my support to something closer to home but only because it feels "right" to me.

Gee, U aren't U? If you want me to identify you correctly, I suggest you get an identity.

Fine example of "passive aggression". Why have you been angry with me for so long, Peggy? I've been trying to work it out. I just can't believe this has to do with the Irish issue we disagreed about some months ago at another sight. But I have had hardly any contact with you, Dave and Kate since that heated exchange, so I can't see that it could be anything else, except perhaps the lack of contact.

hadi, that wasn't me, that was some other anonymous poster, buttcrack, i think. who is joel?

Dave is watching a movie.

Hadi said: "I'm not clouded by 'beliefs' and ego projections."

Well, goody for you! So glad that you let us know.

cathy, if i tell you my motivation, you won't be able to take what i say and come up with totally different interpretations like you just did.

why do you need to know my motivation?

Joel/Skeppy, I was particularly amused by the irony in your comment "Why the mask, Hadi?" Now that really was funny.

Peggy: You're right. Dave was just aggressive. Why is that?

something relevant at the Chopra forum...

...ROTFLMAO!!!

Yes, I know the source.

Also, I didn't see anything passive about Dave's post to you (other than his interest).

Ooops! "relevant". I didn't sit the typing class.

Dave, I never underestimate the power of denial. Those were not my pronouncements they were definitions from a large concise English dictionary. The observation that you were talking about nothing was mine. It would have been a judgement only if you had actually been talking about something. I was also contributing to the debate,in the hope we might move on to something relavent to the Chopra Forum.

P.S. I liked the dialogue. Sure expresses some of the frustrations that I have with social security numbers, account numbers, credit card numbers, phone numbers, IP numbers. I would express my displeasure to the government, but they told me to take a number. :-)

That's not a "peace" sign or an Om, sign, it's just me with big ears.

Peggy, Paddy was quoting lines from the show "The Prisoner".

Hey Dave, why the passive aggressiveness? You don't even "believe" in Souls! And I read everything very carefully. I'm not clouded by "beliefs" and ego projections. that is why I know what the words "belief" and "opinion" actually mean. I did that class and paid attention. You, however, are still back where you were 54000 posts ago. However, I am prepared to "judge" your beliefs one at a time, if you so desire. If you wish to have a real debate, I'm listening. _ [

Hi, Paddy Mc! Such a fine Irish name!

There appears to be a difference in the interrogation that you posted and the questions and answers that fly at the Forum. (Not that you implied that there were any similarities...) We are all here voluntarily in a forum where questions and answers are to be expected.

Just a reminder, election day is nearing. I'd like everyone here to vote early and vote often. But most importantly:

"Questions are a burden to others, answers a prison for oneself"

Where am I?
In the Village.

What do you want?
Information.

Whose side are you on?
That would be telling.

We want Information. Information. Information.

You won't get it.
By hook or by crook, we will.

Who are you?
The new Number 2.

Who is Number 1?
You are Number 6.

I AM NOT A NUMBER, I AM A FREE MAN!

Nice to see your brand of humility again, Hadi. And you're welcome to wear the straitjacket anytime you like. I'm still convinced you don't read very much of a post before you judge it and that you don't comprehend even that much. But, since that's your style, and I can take it or leave it, I'll just continue to leave it.

Nice to see your pronouncements and evaluations, as usual.

I see that there has been a great deal of debate about "beliefs", and everyone seems to have an "opinion" on the matter. In fact some have been championing "beliefs", protecting them and telling us how important it is to have them. This of course is their "opinion". This comes largely from those quarters that challenge and question our "experience" which is true "knowledge".
In my dictionary I found these definitions:

Belief: 1. A principle, etc., accepted as true, especially without proof. 2. opinion; conviction. 3. Religious faith. 4. Trust or confidence, as in a person's abilities.

Opinion: 1. Judgement or belief not founded on certainty or proof. 2. the prevailing or popular feeling or view. 3. Subjective evaluation, impression or estimation of the value or worth of a person or thing...

So a lot of debate about nothing based on nothing. At least I understood what Geoff meant when he said

"3. All beliefs are equally valid"

G'day to you Geoff. Loved your wanking analogy, not sure I agreed with it though. Still, at least the Ausie humour travells better across the cyber waves than my dry English sardonicism. I must thank anonymous poster Why for inspiring that moment of insight. Finally someone nailed it for me. Thanks for the other stuff too > much too much.

Cathy, you have been making perfectly good sense to me.
J J J J J J J J

Peggy, who is Mr 1? My, I didn’t pull the wool over your eyes did I? Even Skep managed to work out that it was me behind the transparent veil of "1" and behind my own IP numbers, and we know how smart he is ; )

Hi, Dave. I took a look at your list too. A straightjacket for the Soul!

Ok, Dick...so you're wanting to learn about "crazy people" like us....but why? To what end? Do you want to help us not be crazy? Are we just entertainment for you?

Or maybe you meant that if I wanted to learn about crazy people, I should then visit the sites that I admitted not enjoying? ;-)

You're not making understanding easy, which is what I expected :-) Just thought I'd try...

Cathy

Please send information to me. Thank You 6632 Middle Grove Rd. Middle Grove, NY 12850

Peggy, With regard to your question about Deepak's concern {or lack thereof} for the poor I would like to comment. Last year when Deepak was speaking in Toronto I had an opportunity to ask a related question. As you may know, this is one area that I feel is neglected or simply does'nt exist in Deepak's work and it concerns me. I feel that developing our personal spirituality is essential but there must in turn be an effect of that on how we live our lives to benefit others. As long as there is hunger, poverty and injustice the world is not as it should be...imo. Therefore the question I asked Deepak was simply why he never addressed this topic? His reply was straightforward.He said this was not his audience nor were they his readership. He did say however that he was working on a plan to eradicate poverty throughout the world and he put a time limit on this. I believe it was ten years but I may be wrong. I also understood that it involved a method of tithing, where those who have give to create a more just world for those who do not have what they need. From this I cannot imagine that Deepak would advocate not giving to those in need, can you? If so, then he would lose a great deal of credibility for me. Hope that helps.

well, cathy, if'n ya wanna learn 'bout crazy people, ya gots'ta visit a nut farm

Does anyone know if Deepak Chopra really advocates avoiding providing food and shelter for the hungry and homeless? Does he say that we will be interfering with their dharma or karma if we do? This was up for discussion here recently but I wasn't sure if that particular point of view was from Chopra.

Nataly, I have two suggestions to help in finding books in Russian by Deepak Chopra:

1. Go to deepakchopra.com and send them an email requesting information.

2. Send an email to "Charles" at vv@asqunet.org
He has some Russian books for sale and might know a way of getting Deepak Chopra's books. Or you can call and inquire within the US at (503) 620-6123.

Dick

I ask this out of genuine curiosity...what draws you here? You don't seem to be of like mind (duh ;-)), you don't seem to want to "change" our minds as far as offering arguments or discussions about why it's better to be as you are (like the well-intentioned, tho misguided person(in my view) did about Islam and the Koran---other than your making fun of us and the way we think, the things we say etc...so what gives? I am honestly curious why you come here to be bothered with our drivel...I put on your shoes, and know that I would not hang out at a site for atheists or skeptics or whatever. Certainly I might read the web-sites or engage in a few exchanges perhaps...but I would not spend regular time with a group that was coming from a totally different place than me. It would be a drag!

Anyway, it's not that I mind you here, as if that would even matter...and I want to be clear that I am not implying that this is a "closed" group....I just don't understand your angle, what you get from your participation here? This may be a pointless endeavor, but I am just trying to understand.

Peace

Cathy

Will some one tell wich books oo Deepack Chopra have been traslated to Rusian lenguage and where can I buy them

Frank! Come back soon--you've been missed! And what's this about living in Japan??? Oh, I'm sure I speak for the majority here--we want to know more!

actually, Peggy, it was Cathy and Karen, imo, that cleared things up. i just contributed, but was glad to. and thanks for the suggestion for dick jokes to lighten things up around here. i am searching as i write, heh! ;)

aahhh! Dick, it's simple, you were speaking of effectiveness while i was simply pointing out techniques. even your story of the Zen stick, and there are many stories of how the Masters used those sticks, it is the symbol, the stick, i was referring to. why would these students choose this symbol to remind them of mindfulness? why do we need any kind of aggressive action or symbols to make us behave morally or be peaceful? i don't know but, evidently, the powers that be, feel we do?

Hi Peggy

Good evening everyone!

Anne, I took the quiz from your link. With more than half the questions I couldn't help but wish there where better answers. The questions and the answers seemed to me to assume certain things about spirituality that I don't feel apply to me and my path. For example the very first question asks:

Q1. I believe that God:
1. Exists and intervenes in daily events
2. Exists but does not intervene in daily events
3. Is a spiritual ideal, not an actual being
4. Does not exist

I would have wished for an answer like, "Is the intelligence and energy that permeates the universe in a timeless and spaceless presence. God is unknowable, but can be experienced in mindfulness." Does that mean "He" intervenes in daily events? Yes, in a sense. Does that mean "She" does not intervene in daily events? Yes in the sense that they probably meant in asking the question (i.e. some supernatural, parting of the Red Sea kind of way). Does it mean that "He" is a spiritual ideal and not an actual being? Yes, but I object to the word "ideal" since I don't think of God as some ideal that I have, but that "She" simply IS. Does it mean that "He" does not exist? Well that depends on one's definition of God. The God that I can relate to is beyond existence and non-existence so in a sense yes to answer 4.

I had similar problems with most of the questions. It was fun though, and stimulated thought. Thanks for posting it!

Another interesting debate - click here

Carol, thanks for helping to clear things up.

I liked your ass jokes. They were not directed at any ass in particular.:-)

Maybe next time you should tell dick jokes. (snort!)

Dick, you are a puzzle! When I think of you, I imagine a knight or damsel in a suit of armour, riding on a white horse. But are those horns coming out of your helmet? :-)

Dave, apologies if my little attempt at humour gave you the wrong impression. :) I am referring to 'handing the answers on a plate' which was meant very much tongue-in-cheek. I was in one of my frequent silly moods. I have to remind myself that not everyone shares my quirky (some would say warped) sense of humour.

I read your list of beliefs. I'd add one to that list - The only thing we learn from history is that noboody learns from history.

Like Anne, the very word 'belief' is an interesting one to ponder. Whenever we encounter a new idea or a new descritpion of reality or a new theory how DO we evaluate it? What is it inside us that says "What a load of rubbish" or "Yes, that seems about right" ... and in seeking out the 'origin' of the way (or ways) we view reality again one's mind can start to boggle.

I agree with your observation that opposing views can learn from each other though it tends to be rare that a debate stays amicable and civil as each side tends to 'defend' their picture by poking holes in the other's view and in many cases it gets personal. That's what attachment will do ... I have to constantly question myself whenever I encounter someone whose views I don't share and ask "Well, why am I so sure I'm closer to the truth than they are?" We do tend to divide the world up according to those who share our beliefs/views/experiences versus those who don't and then reserve our positive emotions for those in the 'Us' category.

History shows us this doesn't create harmony. :)

Anne, thanks for the links - especially the quiz

One question is as follows:

Regarding those who hold beliefs that are sharply different from mine, I think:

1. It’s amazing the sort of nonsense some people will believe
2. Since many people aquire their beliefs through upbringing or social circumstances, we should not judge
3. All beliefs are equally valid
4. They may be sincere but are mistaken or ill-informed

I would add: 5. All beliefs systems contain part of the truth but the truth exists beyond the power of mere words to describe or convey.

Anyone like to add another possible answer?

Speaking of letting go - click here

Namaste

ok carol. the next time i question the effectiveness of a spiritual method, and you respond by saying "well, the truth of the matter is there is this other such and such similar method have you never heard?", i'll have to remember that you are not implying that the method you just mentioned is effective.

my god carol are you serious? logic like that only fuels my skepticism.

Thank you two for the very kind words. You were missed also. I will have to get a laptop. I plan to go to Japan to live for a couple of years leaving this January. Will talk more about that later!

Hosh Badam (remember your breathing)

Anne, thanks for bringing the transcript to our attention. I've only read the introductory remarks but can see it's one I'll want to read aloud to Peggy (I'm forever reading stuff to her -- we got a copy of "The Holographic Universe" this weekend and it's on the top of the stack).

The idea that opposing views can participate in such an exchange in what looks like a civil setting, is very encouraging.

One of the beliefs that I failed to include in my list is that I believe we can use these opposing views to strengthen those things we only partially believe, and to unseat those beliefs we weren't really all that sure about to start with.

There's always something to learn from others' views.

he surely has! and Sharon, too.

Well, at least Frank can see that he's been missed, right?

Crown/Harmony Books

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