web hosting short URLs photo sharing

Chambers/KiY Timeline

Overview
The Mason Wars
The Racist State
Alternate and *really* alternate
Alternate WWII & The King of America
John Dillinger
Imperial America
Many Worlds
Fiction Stranger than life
Architecture, Marcus Garvey and the free state of Suanee
Cop out(?), GURPS Voodoo, more Suanee
More Masons

From: "Super Dave"

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 00 21:23PM PDT

Well, this is something I've been playing with for a while now, and will form an important part of the background for the revised version of "Angel." I was going to wait until I had finished the list version of the story before presenting this, but with the current Time Thread, I decided that there is no time like the present (so to speak).

Chambers' "The Repairer of Reputations" is set about 25 years in the future, in the year 1920. The opening presents this speculative future as one in which the US has had a recent war with Germany (probably a variant of WW1), which included Germany's invasion of Norfolk and New Jersey before Germany's apparent utter defeat. Germany, Italy, Spain, and Belgium are in a state of anarchy, "while Russia, watching from the Causasus, stooped and bound them one by one." Cuba, Hawaii, and Samoa are held as US territories.

Domestically, Chicago has burned down again, and the rebuilding has sparked a wave of good architecture in every city. Cities are more open and park-like, "elevated structures demolished and underground roads built to replace them." The nation is prosperous and very well-defended, and diplomats are now specially trained for the job, like lawyers. The arts are well-funded by the government, and we have a National Mounted Police Force under the Forestry and Game Dept, of all things. Power seems to be held far more centrally than in our world, but this contributes to "national calm and prosperity."

Race, immigration, and religion are crucial differences: There is a "new independent Negro state of Suanee," which I imagine to be formed along the lines of a Native American reservation, perhaps with a greater degree of autonomy than reservations had at the time. This must have been created in the South around the region of the Suanee River, and probably involved the forced relocation of nearly all African-Americans. (Such a thing, of course, could never have been done without a great centralization of power.) Immigration in general has been tightened, and foreign-born Jews have been excluded from immigration entirely (perhaps there are exceptions). There are "new laws concerning naturalization"; no mention of what these are is made, but I assume from other evidence that they make naturalization more difficult. The government has "solved the Indian problem," using Native Americans as scouts in the military (exactly how this would solve the problems I don't really know--there must have been more to it, but it sounds like one in a long chain of half-baked schemes). Finally, there has been a "collosal Congress of Religions," which sems to have erased or at least softened the lines between the plethora of Christian sects in America, starting a process of consolidation. (The "bigotry and intolerance" that this congress "laid in their graves" seems only to have benifitted Christians, perhaps only Protestants--certainly the Jews don't share in it.)

The laws preventing suicide have been repealed and the first Government Lethal Chamber, a place where you can go die effeciently and peacefully, has been opened in New York City, April, 1920.

And, of course, we have that evil play, *The King in Yellow,* which is no mere rumor but a well-known work, though suppressed.

***

Ok, that was a long lead-in. What I want to do is this: Set my fiction (and my campaign) in this alternate world. So it's 80 years later in Chambers' world--what state is the world in? Here are some of my ideas:

*The Suanee Free State is still around, but the lines have softened. African-Americans are allowed to live in the main USA freely, but as they have a "homeland," they are somewhat regarded as "foreigners" when encountered outside Suanee. Suanee itself has prospered--in the 1940s, after decades of being exploited and manipulated by the USA, the leadership of Suanee went on a crash-modernization program, sending its best and brightest all over the world to study and bring back the skills needed (following the model of Japan during the Meiji period), and welcoming the intellectuals fleeing Europe (many of whom were not welcome in the USA due to laws against Jewish immigrants--the USA tried to prevent Suanee's "recruitment," but its own laws kept it from doing so). As a result, the citizens of Suanee are on average rather more highly educated than those of the USA, and US companies often seek Suaneans for technical positions. Racism in the USA is still quite strong, but claims that blacks have lower intelligence are deflated by the statistics, and racism tends to focus on the "they're taking all the highest-paying jobs!" argument, instead. On the other hand, Suaneans are respected for their education, culture, and prosperity.

*The immigration laws have been relaxed, particularly those excluding Jews and Japanese, which were found to be unconstitutional after WW2. Still, Jews have just as much of a hard time in the Carcosan timeline as in ours, perhaps a bit harder. The alliance between Suanee and Jews has created a huge conspiracy-theory mill.

*The attempts to solve the Indian problem in the 1920s didn't work out as well as planned, and Suanee has created further alliances among the various Native American Reservations in the USA. Suanee also has ties with the native-rights movements in Hawaii, Alaska, and other US Territories. (I'm running on an assumption--strange, I know--that Alaska and Hawaii never became states, but instead elected to remain territories. Thus, the USA still has only 48 states, not counting Suanee, which has a different, more independent status than either a state or a territory.) Although Suanee and the various reservations and territories have no voting rights in Congress, together they can bring politcal pressure to bear and therefore have power in the USA.

*The centralization of the US government has proceeded apace, but there are strong states'-rights movements and a lot of unrest and fringe independence movements in some places. A lot like our world, but moreso. Things are shaky. This has resulted in a general tightening of gun laws and weakening of search-and-seizure laws--it is much harder to get or carry a gun, and if you own one, your home can be searched on almost any pretext. [PLEASE don't let this statement be the basis for a gun rights debate--it merely seems to me a logical result of greater gov't centralization combined with public unrest.]

*The Russian Empire lasted another generation before crashing down and being reborn as the USSR. Germany and other former vassal states crawled out of the wreckage with an intense hatred of Russia; Hitler used this to great effect to gain power. Initially hailed as a rebel rebuilder by the USA and lauded for his opinons about the Jews, he was able to make great strides before showing his true colors. It is widely rumored and regarded as a truism that he read *The King in Yellow* during his art-student days. The USA eventually joined the war, but almost too late. Otherwise, WW2 was pretty similar to our own.

*The glorious dreams of religious consolidation have rather sputtered out; although some sects have joined together, and the process continues among much hope, twice as many have split apart, and new cults are common.

*Suicide is still commonly regarded as a fundamental right, but the Lethal Chambers are not terribly busy except during times of economic troubles, and some have been closed due to disuse. Several states are fighting the central government to reestablish their laws against suicide and get rid of the lethal chambers--the fight is somewhat similar to the abortion battles in our timeline, but not as strong or violent. The Catholic Church is, of course, very much against the Lethal Chambers.

*Delta Green and MJ-12 are pretty much as described in the canon. Note that federal law-enforcement agencies are only allowed to operate in Suanee under controlled conditions--Suanee has its own law-enforcement, and after a great many abuses on the part of the USA, is quite reluctant to cooperate. Clandestine missions into Suanee are common, however, and just as commonly uncovered and tossed out by the Suanee police. Relations between USA and Suanee (and other territorial and reservation) police and intelligence forces are very strained.

*The King in Yellow* has been nearly wiped out of existence, but never completely. There are dozens of spurious versions floating around. The existence and general outline of the play is well-known among those with a liberal arts education, and many people claim to have "a friend of a second cousin" who has read it. There is confusion over whether the play was originally written in French or English--some claim German. There have been a number of ill-fated theatrical and movie versions--ill-fated usually because they simply failed to live up to the hype and were poorly received, but stories abound about the bad luck surrounding any attempt to do *TKiY,* the real thing or not.

***

Well, that's enough for now. If this sparks any ideas, please share. Dave

From: The Man in Black

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 00 22:09PM PDT

On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Super Dave wrote:
>
> *The immigration laws have been relaxed, particularly those excluding Jews
> and Japanese, which were found to be unconstitutional after WW2. Still, Jews
> have just as much of a hard time in the Carcosan timeline as in ours,
> perhaps a bit harder. The alliance between Suanee and Jews has created a
> huge conspiracy-theory mill.

I think that the Territorial Coalition of Suanee, Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, Cuba, US Virgin Islands, American Samoa, the Philippines, the Native American Nation and others would break apart during a Mexican and Canadian supported insurrection. This new American Revolution would occur during WWII where a fascist Imperial States of America reluctantly joined the Axis. Suanese policy towards the Jews would be central in this struggle.

This Second American Civil War would have ended when Imperial America (remember the American Throne and the Castaigne bloodline? Washington, or Adam Weishaupt, accepted the crown, fnord) turned against the Axis. This implies a much more hostile attitude towards Britain in the ISA, undoubtedly due to the Mason's War (The first American Revolution) putting Washington (or was it Weishaupt) on the Imperial American Throne. The prominence of the American Masons as a road toward the nobility and as anti-Mythos (or pro-Mythos) secret orders (depending on the lodge) would then become the foundation of the struggle between DG vs. MJ.

I can see things like the Declaration of New Independance, the ISA sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, unrestricted submarine warfare against the Carribean League, and other nastyness. Due to this, the Caribbean (Sp?) and the South Pacific could still be hotbeds of modern-day piracy, possibly covertly supported by the Territorial Coalition.
> Otherwise, WW2 was pretty similar to our own.

That is *so* a cop out. Wuss. Don't worry though, the MiB is here to take care of these important things for you.
> *The Russian Empire lasted another generation before crashing down and being
> reborn as the USSR. Germany and other former vassal states crawled out of
> the wreckage with an intense hatred of Russia;
> *The King in Yellow* has been nearly wiped out of existence,

I would go the exact opposite direction, making the KiY mass produced and widely distributed would lead to hidden insanity being common and secret decadence (ala Eyes Wide Shut) exceedingly popular in the ISA and the former Russian Territories in Europe where it seems to have originated. This would make the Soviet Union one of the last bastions of Carcosa-free Sanity in the western world.

From: "Super Dave"

Date: Sat, 12 Aug 00 23:22PM PDT

From: The Man in Black
> I think that the Territorial Coalition of Suanee, Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto
> Rico, Cuba, US Virgin Islands, American Samoa, the Philippines, the Native
> American Nation and others would break apart during a Mexican and Canadian
> supported insurrection. This new American Revolution would occur during
> WWII where a fascist Imperial States of America reluctantly joined the
> Axis. Suanese policy towards the Jews would be central in this struggle.

Actually, I considered this, but for my personal purposes, it altered history *too* much. I want to have this alternate history be in the background, a bit subtle and not jumping out all the time. A shattered America would be too disruptive. But again this is only for my purposes--YMMV. Oh and thanks for reminding me of the Virgin Islands--I'd left them out of my notes here.

Also, in one of my earlier musings, this Second American Revolution left Germany able to retire from WW2 largely intact, neither having won or lost, still fascist, and led by Rommell (why Rommell? cause I read his book, that magnificent bastard). But then I read that Colonization book by Harry Turtledove and decided it wasn't really my style. And again, it loomed too large.

As for Imperial America coming out of the closet between 1920 and WW2--the time is just not ripe. Castaigne's failure sent the attempt to establish the Throne underground for 80 years. But the King of America will rise again...or at least try to. DG is against it (I hope)--but what is MJ-12's position?

Hmm, I wonder what the Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign might have to do with the Imperial American Throne?
> This Second American Civil War would have ended when Imperial America
> (remember the American Throne and the Castaigne bloodline? Washington, or
> Adam Weishaupt, accepted the crown, fnord) turned against the Axis. This
> implies a much more hostile attitude towards Britain in the ISA,
> undoubtedly due to the Mason's War (The first American Revolution) putting
> Washington (or was it Weishaupt) on the Imperial American Throne. The
> prominence of the American Masons as a road toward the nobility and as
> anti-Mythos (or pro-Mythos) secret orders (depending on the lodge) would
> then become the foundation of the struggle between DG vs. MJ.

But the Masons supported democracy, and Washington/Weishaupt turned down the offer to become an elected king. Perhaps he knew the time wasn't right...?
>> Otherwise, WW2 was pretty similar to our own.
>
> That is *so* a cop out. Wuss. Don't worry though, the MiB is here to take
> care of these important things for you.

Like I said, I don't want to background to overwhelm the DG universe too much. But go for it. :-)
>> *The King in Yellow* has been nearly wiped out of existence,
>
> I would go the exact opposite direction, making the KiY mass produced and
> widely distributed would lead to hidden insanity being common and secret
> decadence (ala Eyes Wide Shut) exceedingly popular in the ISA and the
> former Russian Territories in Europe where it seems to have originated.

Too much Vibe and things just fall apart--I'd rather have us be on the cusp of a revival of the KiY and have this be a possible disaster looming on the horizon, giving DG something to fight against.
> This would make the Soviet Union one of the last bastions of Carcosa-free
> Sanity in the western world.

Yeah, they don't NEED the KiY--they've got vodka.

Anyway, this is just what I was looking for, even if I'm not gonna use any of it myself. Well, hardly any of it. I've already got nasty plans for the Castaigne bloodline...the old French branch of it. MWAHAHAHAAAAA! But that would be too much of a spoiler for "Angel."

Dave

From: The Man in Black

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 06:10AM PDT

On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Super Dave wrote:

>From: The Man in Black
>>>
>I think that the Territorial Coalition of Suanee, Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto
>Rico, Cuba, US Virgin Islands, American Samoa, the Philippines, the Native
>American Nation and others would break apart during a Mexican and Canadian
>supported insurrection. This new American Revolution would occur during
>WWII where a fascist Imperial States of America reluctantly joined the
>Axis. Suanese policy towards the Jews would be central in this struggle.
>
> Actually, I considered this, but for my personal purposes, it altered
> history *too* much. I want to have this alternate history be in the
> background, a bit subtle and not jumping out all the time. A shattered
> America would be too disruptive. But again this is only for my
> purposes--YMMV. Oh and thanks for reminding me of the Virgin Islands--I'd
> left them out of my notes here.

I was thinking that as soon as the ISA turned against the Axis, that the TC would come crawling back to the throne. That would be the deal, fight the Axis and end the insurrection.
> As for Imperial America coming out of the closet between 1920 and WW2--the
> time is just not ripe.

I was under the impression that the whole thing was a direct line from Weishaupt. That really has appeal to me. If you're gonna make an alternate, make it *really* alternate, otherwise you fall into the trap of pushing your historical and political biases instead of worldbuilding.
> But the Masons supported democracy, and Washington/Weishaupt turned down the
> offer to become an elected king. Perhaps he knew the time wasn't right...?

In our world the winning Masons went all Greek and Franternal on us. In the ISA the bloodline Masons won. Hence, Weishaupt instead of Washington.
>I would go the exact opposite direction, making the KiY mass produced and
>widely distributed would lead to hidden insanity being common and secret
>decadence (ala Eyes Wide Shut) exceedingly popular in the ISA and the
>former Russian Territories in Europe where it seems to have originated.
>
> Too much Vibe and things just fall apart--I'd rather have us be on the cusp
> of a revival of the KiY and have this be a possible disaster looming on the
> horizon, giving DG something to fight against.

I like it as something that's already well underway. In Media Res. I would keep it in the background until needed. That way anybody turn out to be a nutbar with a hidden copy of KiY, a brass crown and a court of psychopathic weirdoes to do their bidding.

With such a significantly different world, the contrast when the Agents from our reality exit Carcosa into the ISA world would be alarming and worthy of SAN loss. Finding out that Georgia is a free-black territory and racism is blatant doesn't do it as much as discovering that you live under an Centrist Imperial Monarchy with feudalism and Masonic orders.

Then you start having memories of the new timeline replacing old ones. You could even flashback to old scenarios in a palimpsest manner to generate the new memories.

From: The Man in Black

Date: Mon, 21 Aug 00 09:58AM PDT

On Sun, 20 Aug 2000, Greg Muir wrote:
> I would wager not since the Confederates had such trouble developing an
> industrial base back in the Civil War. I would imagine the same factors
> would come into play here with Suanee remaining a net exporter of
> agricultural goods and a net importer of manufactured goods.

Also keep in mind that there was this thing called the Union Navy which kept exports and imports to a minimum. Most trade was thru Mexico, which was why Johnny Reb sucked up to the British (and their fleet).

Civil War = Mason War II, a new attempt at establishing Lizard America...

Suanee sounds like it would have a better chance (with Atlanta or something as the Capital) at establishing a balanced economy. Of course, there would still be a lot of carpetbaggers to aid this process.

From: Steven Kaye

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 06:51AM PDT

At 3:52 AM +0000 8/13/00, Super Dave wrote:
Well, this is something I've been playing with for a while now, and
will form an important part of the background for the revised
version of "Angel." I was going to wait until I had finished the
list version of the story before presenting this, but with the
current Time Thread, I decided that there is no time like the
present (so to speak).

>Race, immigration, and religion are crucial differences: There is a
>"new independent Negro state of Suanee," which I imagine to be
>formed along the lines of a Native American reservation, perhaps
>with a greater degree of autonomy than reservations had at the time.
>This must have been created in the South around the region of the
>Suanee River, and probably involved the forced relocation of nearly
>all African-Americans. (Such a thing, of course, could never have
>been done without a great centralization of power.)

I always imagined this as a separate country, along the lines of Liberia. YMMV, of course.
>As a result, the citizens of Suanee are on average rather more
>highly educated than those of the USA, and US companies often seek
>Suaneans for technical positions. Racism in the USA is still quite
>strong, but claims that blacks have lower intelligence are deflated
>by the statistics, and racism tends to focus on the "they're taking
>all the highest-paying jobs!" argument, instead. On the other hand,
>Suaneans are respected for their education, culture, and prosperity.

Industrialization might have come later, given interference from the US and the desire on the part of other countries not to piss off the US. China might be interesting in the 'Chambers-verse,' - given the racism of the USA, would there have been much support available for Sun Yat-Sen from this country? Perhaps the Japanese helped the revolution along in this universe. And what about the Kuen-Yin, from Chambers' THE MAKER OF MOONS?
>*The attempts to solve the Indian problem in the 1920s didn't work
>out as well as planned, and Suanee has created further alliances
>among the various Native American Reservations in the USA.

No way in hell a paranoid racist state would put up with Suanee making deals with enclaves within its borders. At the very least I'd see some 'accidental' dropping of bombs in Suanee by US bombers until Suanee took the hint and stopped messing around,
>*Delta Green and MJ-12 are pretty much as described in the canon.

Where they formed for the same reason? How prevalent is non-Hastur Mythos stuff?

Steven

From: "Super Dave"

Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 06:29AM PDT

OK, I'm gonna finally try to respond to this before it gets too stale. And please, if I ever seem about to agree to help my wife go shoe shopping for a 17-year-old girl again, someone deal me an incapacitating-but-not-permanently-crippling injury. Thank you in advance.

>From: The Man in Black, Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000
>09:11:08 -0400 (EDT)
>If you're gonna make an
>alternate, make it *really* alternate, otherwise you fall into the trap of
>pushing your historical and political biases instead of
>worldbuilding.[snip]
>With such a significantly different world, the contrast when the Agents
>from our reality exit Carcosa into the ISA world would be alarming and
>worthy of SAN loss. Finding out that Georgia is a free-black territory and
>racism is blatant doesn't do it as much as discovering that you live under
>an Centrist Imperial Monarchy with feudalism and Masonic orders.

This seems to be the bone of contention here, but again, I don't really disagree in the sense of "you're wrong and I'm right"--it all depends on how one wants to play it. I think that there is also an element of horror in the agents realizing that "this isn't Kansas anymore" slowly, and not having it be a sudden SAN-shattering event (until the final revelations come, of course). This is much of the reason why I like a more subtle approach. (PLeaes note that I don't think that subtle = good, necessarily--depends on the effect you want.)

The other reason is artistic. When I was an art student (before I changed to a major that eventually proved reasonably useful in feeding myself), I used a layering technique which required dozens of layers of paint, charcoal, conte, pastels, and so on to produce the effects I wanted. I got REALLY into this for a while, and started a series of demonic triptychs which had angelic visions in the first, bottom layers, eventually transforming into demons in the final, upper layers. The idea was that the angels could be barely detected through all the grime on top of them. I kind of started to scare the bejeezus out of myself and got WAY too angsty for a while, and that was when I first read some Chambers (I'd been reading HPL for years by then). Anyway, compare that with the following from the intro to the Ryder "translation" of *The King in Yellow*:

"...for the play reportedly had a queer effect indeed upon those who read it in the first years of its release. They were infected with a kind of shared, delusional reality perhaps best exemplified in Chambers' story 'The Repairer of Reputations.' Simply, the objective cosmos that was taken for granted in Victorian times was replaced by a series of overlapping realities, each more irrational than the last. Gradually, a kind of disconnect between these various 'truths' developed, resulting in emotional stress and, in the worst cases, psychosis."

I suppose it's pretty obvious why this passage would click with me. It's not that the sudden-change approach is bad--it's just not the effect I want to acheive for this particular scenario.
>Then you start having memories of the new timeline replacing old ones. You
>could even flashback to old scenarios in a palimpsest manner to generate
>the new memories.

Now that is very kewl.

>From: Steven Kaye
>No way in hell a paranoid racist state would put up with Suanee
>making deals with enclaves within its borders. At the very least I'd
>see some 'accidental' dropping of bombs in Suanee by US bombers until
>Suanee took the hint and stopped messing around,

I think Suanee would technically be part of the USA (can you really see the USA giving away part of its own land to create a foreign nation?). I was figuring on lots of espionage and "carrot-and-stick" manipulation instead. And remember that America in the 1920s could easily be (and often was, by non-whites and communists and other outsiders) described as a "paranoid racist state," but things changed over time. Well, a little, anyway--at least the laws changed. Surely, Suanee has a lot of names on the Martyr Memorial, people who were assassinated, disappeared, etc. And maybe even wiped out with bombers, a la Franco's Spain. But Suanee didn't take the hint--they persevered. Vibe America could change as much as our America did, or as South Africa did. Yes, racism is still a major part of society, but the laws are (mostly) anti-racist now.

The question of Mythos activity in Vibe-World was raised. It could go either way--I would have Mythos activity pretty much as in the regular CoC/DG setting. I don't want to toss out all that good stuff. So DG and MJ-12 would have the same origins as in the DG sourcebook. But I can see DG taking a special interest in the Hastur Mythos, looking into the secret subculture of Imperial America and its often-conflicting attempts to take over. It could be an "enemy" in the same way as the Karotechia, although I see it as more disorganized and often pathetic.

>From: Mark Macfadden
> ObDG: Dave, you are forgetting DG's role in fighting the Mythos in your
>history. What were some of their *victories* that led to this version of
>history that is better than the alternative?

Interesting question--I had been assuming that this timeline was the result of a failure to stop it, or that it simply happened. But also, the divergence begins well before the creation of DG, unless you take the "back-ripple" approach--DG screws up in the 60s, the 80s, the present day, whatever, and this results in Lethal Chambers popping into existence and African Americans starting to have memories of growing up in Suanee. Only, as Mark points out, it might not be a screwup at all, but a victory that results in this sorry state of affairs, which might yet be better than the alternative.

Right, that's enough for tonight.

Dave p>Shoes, Mandrake! SHOES!

From: Davide Mana

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 05:06AM PDT

Greetings.

Looks like SuperDave is having fun ....

>>
>>I think that the Territorial Coalition of Suanee, Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto
>>Rico, Cuba, US Virgin Islands, American Samoa, the Philippines, the Native
>>American Nation and others would break apart during a Mexican and Canadian
>>supported insurrection. This new American Revolution would occur during
>>WWII where a fascist Imperial States of America reluctantly joined the
>>Axis. Suanese policy towards the Jews would be central in this struggle.
>>
> Actually, I considered this, but for my personal purposes, it altered
> history *too* much. I want to have this alternate history be in the
> background, a bit subtle and not jumping out all the time. A shattered
> America would be too disruptive. But again this is only for my
> purposes--YMMV. Oh and thanks for reminding me of the Virgin Islands--I'd
> left them out of my notes here.

[snippage]
> As for Imperial America coming out of the closet between 1920 and WW2--the
> time is just not ripe. Castaigne's failure sent the attempt to establish the
> Throne underground for 80 years. But the King of America will rise
> again...or at least try to. DG is against it (I hope)--but what is MJ-12's
> position?

Try this on for size....

IF the Russian Empire picked each shaky European nation and incorporated it into a large (Tsarist? Communist? Somethinge-else-ist?) empire, then Nazis - with their sdtrong nationalist and anti-slavic tenets and stuff, could well cast themselves as freedom fighters for the oppressed 'Aryan nation'. Nazism would therefore be an underground army in a civil war - at least in the earlier phases of the Second World War. WWII, Mk2 would probably occur _later_ than our own - say the mid '50s, after a long internal struggle based on terrorism and secret proselitizing.

America could side with Russia (supposing thei are both centralized imperial states), or send 'military advisors' to help those hardy Nazi boys, or a strong force of well-organized 'volunteers', or eventually seal itself up in a Wilson-dctrine kind of attitude. Choose the form that you prefer.

With my very European love for chaos and mayhem, I'd obvuiously go for an Indocine/Nam take on the whole conflict, in which Russians send troops (cue to student protests in St Petersburg and draft-jumpers escaping in China) while America sends money, weapons and 'advisors'. You still get genocide (only, as soon as the war gets in the open, you have both Russian Imperialists and Nazi Freedom Fighters setting up extermination camps), lots of obscure dealings and secret treaties, and Karotechia - maybe even more fucked up in the head and embittered than our own.

Bombing Hiroshima could be tricky, but after all, you can still get a very 'Slaughterhouse Five' bombing of Cologne with atomic effects added.

If you really love the current power assets (depressed Russia, Europe struggling to become a single power etc.), you could still bring the situation into a very general replica of our own current status as an aftermath of the conflict.

So, the Doctor (Dee, obviously) orders to check out.....

. Michael Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius canon for Vietnam in Europe.

. Eugene Byrne & Kim Newman's 'Back in the USSA' stories, collected as a single hardbound volume by Mark V. Ziesing Books, Shingletown, CA., ISBN 0-929480-84-8

In particular, 'Abdication Road' about the state of affairs in Imperial Britain and Russia (including Russian Imperial Space Programme), and 'On the Road' about a televangelist bandwagon's ride through depressed America might give you a few ideas.
> But the Masons supported democracy, and Washington/Weishaupt turned down the
> offer to become an elected king. Perhaps he knew the time wasn't right....?
>
>> Otherwise, WW2 was pretty similar to our own.

You can sidestep that too - imagine a very very weak constitutional monarchy, set up after the Revolution so that America could deal with European nations on an equal basis. The king of America is from the beginning a purely representative set up to help Old World powers accept the newlyfound nation. The Yanks could get away with it if they really had Masonic backing - after all, the Freemasons set up the French Revolution and subsequent Napoleonic Empire, so setting up a new monarchy is no big deal. Through the decades, the King would probably turn into a fashion-setting, headline-making character with no real power but enormous popular appeal, sort of a real Uncle Sam to be splashed on recruitment posters. People would still scheme and conspire to get to the throne, but more for the privileges inherent in the èposition than for the actual power. Just repeat to yourself, savouring the sound - The King. The King of America.

Oh.

The true political power rests meanwhile firmly in the hands of the President (of the Cabinet). You can still save much of the 'feel' of modern day Anmerica with this little trick.

After all, the USA has had a number of 'kings' through its history - kings of steel, oil, newspapers, movies.

Both Clark Gable and Elvis were kings.

And remember, even in our own timeline, Clark Gable was the man who killed John Dillinger.

And here I stop ranting for the time being.

Take care!

Davide Mana

From: "Greg Muir"

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 00 22:32PM PDT

> You can sidestep that too - imagine a very very weak constitutional
> monarchy, set up after the Revolution so that America could deal with
> European nations on an equal basis.
> The king of America is from the beginning a purely representative
> set up to
> help Old World powers accept the newlyfound nation.
> The Yanks could get away with it if they really had Masonic
> backing - after
> all, the Freemasons set up the French Revolution and subsequent Napoleonic
> Empire, so setting up a new monarchy is no big deal.
> Through the decades, the King would probably turn into a fashion-setting,
> headline-making character with no real power but enormous popular appeal,
> sort of a real Uncle Sam to be splashed on recruitment posters.
> People would still scheme and conspire to get to the throne, but more for
> the privileges inherent in the èposition than for the actual power.
> Just repeat to yourself, savouring the sound - The King.
> The King of America.

And here's where we can make things really interesting: if we're to accept the possibility of time travel and time loops how about having time loop back upon itself so that two streams run in parallel: our history and the Carosca history. If we take Carosca to one likely conclusion we'll see a protracted small-time nuclear war (kiloton-level bombs dropped back and forth from planes and missiles for years, no gigantic WWIII but a gradual poisoning of the Earth.) The surving country in this eventuality could very well be Nazi Germany. With the Karotechia's research into Mythos magicks they could discover a means of bridging the gap between the timelines. Here we could have a very nasty colonization scenario in mind -- Mythos aware Nazis prepared to throw their troops through astral gates into this world to secure lebensraum for the survivors of a dying world. The way I see this working is a whole lot of cloak and dagger work by otherworld Nazi agents, the kind of thing that would get DG's attention due to them appearing just like thisworld Karotechia. In order to make the invasion a viable affair the Nazis would likely recointer to get a good understanding of this world's political/military situation and stack the odds in their favor for when they finally have to flex some muscles. The Nazi situation by this point would be much like Russia at the end of WWII -- severely brutalized but now capable of throwing their entire economy into war. DG's goal will be to thwart the Nazis' goal, all the time thinking this is still a thisworld Karotechia plot. If DG fails then the invasion will proceed and the scenario will be the domain of DG RPG players and more of alternate history wargammers. ---

Greg Muir

From: Mark Macfadden

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 16:14PM PDT

In a message dated 8/13/00 5:05:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Davide Mana writes:

> And remember, even in our own timeline, Clark Gable was the man who killed John Dillinger.

Actually, that was John Wayne sniping from an alley, but the legend was better than the reality so he let the King take the credit. The Duke was like that, especially with John Ford directing.

Now, riddle me this Boy Wonder: who stole Dillinger's dick and sent it to the Smithsonian where it sits to this day next to the Ark of the Covenant and the Spear of Longinus?

Mark McFadden
Tonight on Phenomena-X: John Dillinger's dick once again rears it's ugly head on the DGML. Correspondent Sonja Dewey was unavailable for this report, which depressed everyone here at the studio for most of the afternoon. Instead, we have our new cub reporter Tommy Prendergast. Tommy?

TP: I'm here at the Smithsonian and everyone is laughing at me. This is a joke, right?

From: The Man in Black

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 06:40AM PDT

On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Davide Mana wrote:
> Just repeat to yourself, savouring the sound - The King.
> The King of America.

The way I imagined the government of the Imperial States of America was that we have Kingdoms set up "above" states, with some important states being Kingdoms unto themselves (California) while others states become independant duchys (Greater Carolina) or republics (Texas) that owe fealty to the Emperor.

The breakdown I have works like this:

KINGDOMS
New England (The Duchy of Dunwich, the Duchy of Arkham
America Prime (most of the East Coast)
Dixie (The South, except for Suanee)
California
Mexico (the SouthWest)
Vancouver (The Pacific Northwest)
Dakota (The Midwest)

INDEPENDANT DUCHIES
New York
Greater Carolina
Louisiana
Kansas

OTHERS
Territory of Suanee
Republic of Texas (including Oklahoma)
Carribbean League (tributary state)
Free City of Atlanta
Free City of Chicago
Theocracy of Utah
Disneyland (Corporate City-State)

From: Mark Macfadden

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 00 16:14PM PDT

In a message dated 8/12/00 11:22:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Super Dave writes:

>>> Otherwise, WW2 was pretty similar to our own.
>>
>>That is *so* a cop out. Wuss. Don't worry though, the MiB is here to take
>>care of these important things for you.

>Like I said, I don't want to background to overwhelm the DG universe too much. But go for it. :-) >>

I don't think that Many Worlds has been done to death. In fact, I think trying to stuff all the intricacies of time into some tame 3D model is what has been DTD. It reminds me of when you play Risk at some other guy's house and discover that a) they have "lost" the rules and b) they have only a local variant that they taught all their friends. Invariably, the cards mean nothing in the local variant and the whole game is spent trying to hang on to continents and never opens up into the part of the game that got it called "Risk". So then you have to get mean and play the game, but only if they will stop calling it Risk, which it isn't. It's just Monopoly with armies instead of money. Which they of course deny, and then they get touchy about the whole thing and tension builds, especially when you keep telling the board everything they are going to do (with so few options left this isn't hard) which makes them do silly things just to prove you wrong which is what you wanted in the first place which means you win the game but you don't get invited back but you don't care because you don't want to play with lamers who can't handle *cards in Risk* for cryin' out loud and it's a pyrrhic moral victory, but at least you made your point and now you have more time to devote to unearthing the real skinny on the Lizard People of LA and Evil Clowns and important stuff like that so who needs "friends" like that? Huh? OK, bad analogy.

What can I say? I was infected by Lieber and the Change Wars\Big Time. I think Many Worlds or EWG provides a bigger canvas. Some get intimidated by Infinity, I feel empowered. Maybe it's the metaphors that are used to manipulate thoughts of Time\Infinity. 3D topology, even using 3D figures as metaphors for 4(+)D concepts imposes unnatural restrictions on the possibilities. Oh sure, it makes it easier to explain to the audience and is easier to render on a screen for the control room sequences, but I always use the guideline "If it is immediately comprehensible, it isn't the whole story". I don't abandon them, BTW, I just use them as examples of Time behavior locally. Good for this one of Many Worlds, but bush league on the Big Time. Although it imposes it's own restrictions, I have switched over to networking as my metaphor for time and it's behavior, at least the causality parts.

OK, so one POV has a sane and sensible (though vast and complex) reality surrounded by chaos which we must keep at bay and only allow through if it stays between the lines and behaves. Another POV has *everything* Chaos and the laws of physics are odd statistical anomalies of chaos that seem to promote a linear cause and effect locally. Ccccan't we just gggget along? Many Worlds (as we think we know it so far) doesn't produce some of the anomalies unearthed in PROJECT:RAINBOW, but local rules do. QuIP.net makes sure the one of Many Worlds that gets to see 'em is the one your Players are interacting with. A bit of linearity amongst the chaos to please the locals.

ObDG: Dave, you are forgetting DG's role in fighting the Mythos in your history. What were some of their *victories* that led to this version of history that is better than the alternative?

Mark McFadden

"It's best never to align yourself with clowns, even in a superficial manner. As my four-year-old son put it after having clowns explained to him,
"So clowns are supposed to be funny, but then they accidentally make you sad and afraid?"
Mike Nelson's Movie Megacheese

From: Nick Brownlow

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 04:42AM PDT

>I want to do is this: Set my fiction (and
>my campaign) in this alternate world.

This is a great idea, and one I've been toying with myself. However, I added a kink on the whole 'alternate reality' thing.

My take is that the world of Chamber's KiY is wholly fictional, dreamt up by Chambers himself whilst under the influence of 'the Vibe'. As Chambers wrote of his characters being consumed by Carcosian madness, however, he was effectively 'writing' them into Carcosa, where they took on an existence of their own. The Castaignes, for instance, crop up as characters in the Night Floors- even though they have never existed in 'real' life.

I decided that in Carcosa, it's possible to meet other great characters of fiction who found their way there as well;- Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment, perhaps; maybe Camus's Mersault. Definetely the house dick from Chandler's KiY.

It follows from this also that if fictional characters can be consumed by Carcosa, so too can fictional places (Carcosa consumes people and place alike in the 'real' world), and so the 'world' of Chambers kiY also has an objective existence of some kind. At a very basic level, however, this existence is wholly derived from the Vibe, so players in this campaign setting are in for a rough ride SAN wise.

In this 'alternate' world, the key to everything is the Chambers KiY; history pre-Chambers follows exactly the same pattern as it did in the 'real' world- everything after that is different to conform to Chambers' vision of the future. Since Chambers stopped writing about this alternate world, events have just 'freewheeled', and the world has created its own 'history'.

Campaign-wise, as agents of the Imperial Government, the players might become interested in an obscure book with the same name as the banned play, or maybe the Chambers KiY is banned too. In any case, the players should only accquire a copy at the end of any campaign, at which point they find that although written in the 1890's, it perfectly describes events that took place thirty years later (the characters investigation has presumably already accquainted them with the facts of the cases described). -1D100 SAN when the characters realise their entire world, including themselves, is fictional.

And as for everyone's favourite shadowy government conspiracy;-

There's no aliens or overt mythos activity in this world. There are however, lots of strange Carcosian influences and manifestations at work;- evil clown cults, mass dissapearances, wild hunts. Secret societies are rife. Byhakee tend to crop up a lot. The reality of this world is stretched pretty thin, and reality-bending insanity periodically explodes into the world and causes mayhem.

Delta Green are consequently a kind of 'reality police', seeking out the insanity and putting it down before it can spread. Perhaps at the very highest levels, it is understood that the world is only a fictional creation, and one with a limited shelf life.

Just a few thoughts. And very glad to see that Angel is continuing, BTW.

From: "William Timmins"

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 05:36AM PDT

From: Nick Brownlow

>>I want to do is this: Set my fiction (and
>>my campaign) in this alternate world.
>
>the Chambers KiY is banned too. In any case, the players should only
>accquire
>a copy at the end of any campaign, at which point they find that although
>written in the 1890's, it perfectly describes events that took place thirty
>
>years later (the characters investigation has presumably already
>accquainted
>them with the facts of the cases described). -1D100 SAN when the characters
>realise their entire world, including themselves, is fictional.

For an even more twisted twist, how about our world and history is the fictional one?

The key is Chambers' KiY, and it's 'proposed' future. The key is that the book itself is a gateway from our fictional universe to the 'real' one, in the form of a story about a nonexistant place.

In the 'real' world, authors occasionally take turns writing about the 'Nuclear age', a mythos of shared stories and fictions as escapist fantasy. If you want to carry it further, perhaps technology and innovation have not progressed as fast in the 'real' world, so that our world is actually a SF-tinged speculative reality. I mean, c'mon... mapping out the human genome? Goats producing spider silk?

One of the writers included himself, perhaps as an inside joke, as Robert Chambers, who wrote about a 'fictional' world in the 1890s, the King in Yellow.

What those other writers do not fully understand is that their fictions have attained reality. The KiY and Carcosa, the Dreamlands, and all those elements are part of this, fragments of a deep and horrible key. (KiY? Such a set up should include a lot of levels of double meanings and strange coincidences)

You can set up the campaign with the players slowly realizing the Carcosan reality is a complete alternate world, a virtual world created by fiction and dreams...

Then, at the end, the ultimate twist is that OUR world, OUR reality is the fictional one, and we are merely shadows of something more real.

-=Will

From: Mark Macfadden

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 00 11:13AM PDT

In a message dated 8/14/00 7:36:09 AM EST, Will Timmins writes:

> In the 'real' world, authors occasionally take turns writing about the 'Nuclear age', a mythos of shared stories and fictions as escapist fantasy. If you want to carry it further, perhaps technology and innovation have not progressed as fast in the 'real' world, so that our world is actually a SF-tinged speculative reality. I mean, c'mon... mapping out the human genome? Goats producing spider silk? One of the writers included himself, perhaps as an inside joke, as Robert Chambers, who wrote about a 'fictional' world in the 1890s, the King in Yellow.

You can run but you can't hide.

Check the grand finale of the 'Illuminatus Trilogy' and RAW's 'Number of the Beast' and it's sequel 'The Cat Who Walks Through Walls'.

You know, corny as the big Boy Scout can be, Kimball Kinnison wouldn't make a bad ally. And Worsel rocks, naturally.

Mark McFadden

From: Nick Brownlow

Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 08:22AM PDT
>This seems to be the bone of contention here, but again, I don't really
>disagree in the sense of "you're wrong and I'm right"--it all depends on how
>one wants to play it. I think that there is also an element of horror in the
>agents realizing that "this isn't Kansas anymore" slowly, and not having it
>be a sudden SAN-shattering event (until the final revelations come, of
>course). This is much of the reason why I like a more subtle approach.
>(PLeaes note that I don't think that subtle = good, necessarily--depends on
>the effect you want.)

I can see your point- and I think a lot of alternate history stuff gets far too hung up on the clever details of the new timeline; characters and plot tends to get lost in all the historical sleight of hand, so I can understand the why as well.

However, making a point of setting something in an alternate reality and then saying that things have turned out in much the same way does seem like a bit of a cop out. I'd make a point of referring to the 'little' differences- particularly in the written fiction.

Imagine Chicago as a 'baroque' town, or Los Angeles as an art deco showpeice.
>I think Suanee would technically be part of the USA (can you really see the
>USA giving away part of its own land to create a foreign nation?). I was
>figuring on lots of espionage and "carrot-and-stick" manipulation instead.
>And remember that America in the 1920s could easily be (and often was, by
>non-whites and communists and other outsiders) described as a "paranoid
>racist state," but things changed over time. Well, a little, anyway--at
>least the laws changed. Surely, Suanee has a lot of names on the Martyr
>Memorial, people who were assassinated, disappeared, etc. And maybe even
>wiped out with bombers, a la Franco's Spain. But Suanee didn't take the
>hint--they persevered. Vibe America could change as much as our America did,
>or as South Africa did. Yes, racism is still a major part of society, but
>the laws are (mostly) anti-racist now.

The crucial difference between your Vibe world and the real one is that in America and South Africa there was not partition, rather apartheid.

You'll probably get more mileage out of using Northern Ireland/the Republic, former Yugoslavia, Israel/West Bank etc. as your models. In addition, the Suaneese are going to have had the chance to develop a culture and history that American blacks in the real world did not; for instance, in this world, Martin Luther King would just have been another politician (at best, a Nehru to Marcus Garvey's Ghandi). Militant Black Islam probably didn't catch on, but 'Back to Africa' type movements may well have. And if there's not a strong seperatist movement in Suanee, well, I'm afraid I'll have to eat my elder sign (I mean, there's even a seperatist movement in Yorkshire, for God's sake).

From: Steve Kaye

Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 08:46AM PDT

Nick wrote:

>In addition, the
>Suaneese are going to have had the chance to develop a culture and >history
>that American blacks in the real world did not; for instance, in >this world,
>Martin Luther King would just have been another politician (at best, >a Nehru
>to Marcus Garvey's Ghandi). Militant Black Islam probably didn't >catch on, but
>'Back to Africa' type movements may well have.

Now this could be incredibly cool. How would Suanee react to, say, Father Divine (http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/9/0,5716,31179+1+30677,00.html)? What would Suanee's relations with Haiti and the Dominican Republic be? How would the history of Africa change, with a successful black nation (or territory) to look to as a model?

Also, any Florida or Georgia residents know if Suanee would have enough raw materials to be potentially economically self-sufficient?

Steven

From: "Super Dave"

Date: Fri, 18 Aug 00 19:41PM PDT

From: Nick Brownlow
>However, making a point of setting something in an alternate reality and
>then
>saying that things have turned out in much the same way does seem like a
>bit
>of a cop out. I'd make a point of referring to the 'little' differences-
>particularly in the written fiction.

"Cop out" is a bit strong, isn't it? I think it takes as much work in the end to develop a universe that is only slightly skewed (because of more focus on the details) as to develop one that is radically different (such universes tend to be drawn in broad strokes and center around themes, like "Commie-World," "Nazi-World," "Black-Pineapple-World," etc). Anyay, if we assume an infinte number of alternate worlds to play with, some of them are going to be very similar to our own. I remember one world in *The Number of the Beast* in which the only readily-apparent difference was that there was no letter J or something like that. (Well, they didn't stay there long--for all I know the place was ruled by the Lizard King.)
>Imagine Chicago as a 'baroque' town, or Los Angeles as an art deco
>showpeice.

Yeah, this is something we haven't talked about much--the architectural differences. As architecture has reared its head on this list several times before, and as Chambers makes a point of an architectural renaissance in America in the early 20th century, and we have spoken of Masonic influences being closely tied with Imperial America (though whether the Masons support or resist IA is unclear), it seems to me this could be a rich vein. And as Nick implies, the architecture is important to the setting, really giving a feel for the place.
>The crucial difference between your Vibe world and the real one is that in
>America and South Africa there was not partition, rather apartheid.

Well, blacks were partitioned in S. Africa, just not as thoroughly as implied in "The Repairer of Reputations." But I've never assumed that *all* African-Americans got shipped off to Suanee. The story doesn't say that--it just says the problem has been solved. I imagined something more like apartheid's "homelands" system or the situation with the Palestinians in Israel: permits to leave Suanee to work or live.
>You'll probably get more mileage out of using Northern Ireland/the
>Republic,
>former Yugoslavia, Israel/West Bank etc. as your models. In addition, the
>Suaneese are going to have had the chance to develop a culture and history
>that American blacks in the real world did not; for instance, in this
>world,
>Martin Luther King would just have been another politician (at best, a
>Nehru
>to Marcus Garvey's Ghandi). Militant Black Islam probably didn't catch on,
>but
>'Back to Africa' type movements may well have. And if there's not a strong
>seperatist movement in Suanee, well, I'm afraid I'll have to eat my elder
>sign
>(I mean, there's even a seperatist movement in Yorkshire, for God's sake).

I very much agree about the separatist movement--there would have to be one. In fact, if Suanee is as economically robust as I proposed earlier, I think the majority of Suanese would be separatists. The opposition (probably in power) would use the argument that, if Suanee ever completely split from the USA, America would have no compunction against full-scale bombing the next time things got tense--and tense situations are probably cyclical, matched up with America's usual 20-year liberal/conservative cycle.

I've been having similar thoughts about King and Garvey. Malcolm X is an interesting point, too--his autobiography makes clear how very different he would have turned out if he'd grown up in a different society--as would we all, of course. And this leads to thoughts of Suanese religion: would it be mainly Christian? Or would a new (or old) religion spring up? I see a lot of cultural exchange between Suanee and Africa, Haiti, etc--I imagine a synthesis of Christianity and pagan religions along the lines of Santaria being quite popular (maybe unofficially and in-the-closet...maybe not).

Remember too that the Suanese are aligned with the other badly-treated minorities in America, particularly the Jews, and thus might have good relations with Isreal. Which might mean tension within Suanee, as Islam (either "standard" Islam, or perhaps something along the lines of America's Black Muslims) would have a following, perhaps introduced by African students and refugees. Factions.

Dave

From: Mark Macfadden

Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 13:36PM PDT

In a message dated 8/18/00 7:41:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Super Dave writes:

> Remember too that the Suanese are aligned with the other badly-treated minorities in America, particularly the Jews, and thus might have good relations with Isreal. Which might mean tension within Suanee, as Islam (either "standard" Islam, or perhaps something along the lines of America's Black Muslims) would have a following, perhaps introduced by African students and refugees. Factions.

I got a faction for ya. How about the Rastafarians? A little Santeria with Haile Selassie as the last true born King of the House of David. Better than Louis Farrakhan for alienating Israel.

Mark McFadden

From: The Man in Black

Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 07:28AM PDT

On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Super Dave wrote:
> "Cop out" is a bit strong, isn't it?

No. You're just a little Wuss. Living in your little wussy world, with all your little wussy friends, thinking your little wussy thoughts.

WUSSY WORLD, WUSSY WORLD! EXCELLENT~!

> I think it takes as much work in the end to develop a universe that is
> only slightly skewed (because of more focus on the details) as to
> develop one that is radically different (such universes tend to be
> drawn in broad strokes and center around themes, like "Commie-World,"
> "Nazi-World," "Black-Pineapple-World," etc).

The broad strokes are often painted in these worlds because of the big differences. There's nothing graven in stone that says that we can't focus on all the tiny details of a True Imperial America. In fact, most of the little details in your Wussy-World can and should be applied to the ISA.

With this list, an Imperial America with both broad and little strokes can be done, with each broad stroke done to death via round robin. There's your cop out, you only have to focus on small stuff. Big stuff implies all sorts of little changes, so an epic alternate requires much more thought than a subtle one. Which is why you're such a tremendous wuss, who shops for girl's shoes, the true sign of a wuss.

WUSSY WORLD, WUSSY WORLD! EXCELLENT~!

> Anyay, if we assume an infinte number of alternate worlds to play with,
> some of them are going to be very similar to our own.

Not necessarily. Remember GURPS Time Travel, "An infinite number of apples does not imply any oranges." Also don't overlook the possibility that there are only a limited number of alternates, or that it's dangerous to travel to "Shadows" due to some kind of bleed or overlap effect (perhaps RAINBOW has something to say about that).

> Or would a new (or old) religion spring up? I see a lot of cultural
> exchange between Suanee and Africa, Haiti, etc--I imagine a synthesis of
> Christianity and pagan religions along the lines of Santaria being quite
> popular (maybe unofficially and in-the-closet...maybe not).

See GURPS Voodoo for some good ideas along these lines. I highly recommend it, especially if you wanna go and develop a Church of Santaria to compete with the SuperCathedral Congress.

To Lizard up:

SuperDave = WussyDave
ISA = Kewl
GURPS = owes me payola
Reptiles = Shoes
Santaria = Creepy
Architechure = Creepy br>Masons = Keepers of Secrets

From: The Man in Black

Date: Sat, 19 Aug 00 07:40AM PDT

On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Super Dave wrote:
> and we have spoken of Masonic influences being closely tied with
> Imperial America (though whether the Masons support or resist IA is
> unclear),

Don't think of the Masons as a monolithic bloc, I think they should be split by divisions and united only in their lodge goals. Rival lodges and orders makes for better gameplay anyway. Some lodges can be founded specifically to support the Usurper Kings of Louisiana/Quebec/Greater Castaigne, while others will support the Fascist Republic, and still others (the good guys) will back the Imperial Regency of Norton I (The West Coast's Pauper Emperor). And let's not forget the evil serpent folk/White Worm lodges of David Icke's England...

Back to the Section Index

Back to the Ice Cave