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MJ12
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Idea and Comments
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:45:39 -0500
From: Graeme Price
I had an interesting though this morning, so I'm sending it out to bounce round the list collective conciousness. Besides, it makes a change from all the EH weirdness! Here goes:
The original COVENANT deep one specimens were (and still are) stored at YY-II, but back in 1947 MJ-12 also began storing Grey (and perhaps other alien races) there as well. With the abolition of DG as an official entity, what happened to the deep one specimens?
What I'm trying to say is this: Presumably YY-II is split into 2 sections - one controlled by MJ-12 for their alien storage programme, and one (smaller?) section responsible for the curation of the deep ones (and presumably still using the old COVENANT classification).
So, is MJ-12 aware of the deep ones? I suspect that this is the case (or perhaps _was_ the case) due to the initial recruitment of DG personnel into MJ-12 after Roswell. Whether the current MJ-12 heirachy is aware of them is unknown (after all, the early ex-DG MJ-12 personnel would have probably retired a long time ago). This is actually quite important in practical terms. If MJ-12 is unaware of the nature of the COVENANT unit at YY-II, then it may be possible for DG agents to get access to the COVENANT specimens (provided of course that they could get hold of the correct COVENANT clearances from the ONI - remember that according to the SEAGATE documents in the DG book, COVENANT is still an active classification). Of course, if MJ-12 is aware of what COVENANT really is (particularly in realtion to it's DG connections), there could be standing orders in place to arrest (or worse) anyone trying to access the COVENANT materials. In fact, is it possible that the COVENANT programme could be ressurected (perhaps semi-officially) by the ONI as a sort of back door reactivation of DG? The risks involved in this could be pretty big, however.
Assuming that MJ-12 knows what is in the COVENANT section of YY-II, what do they think the specimens really are? Would they buy into the occult ramifications of the deep ones, or merely assume (perhaps with Grey encouragement) that they are "just another alien race"? Not only that, but are MJ-12 actively researching technologies derived from deep one genetics/metabolism? [this could provide for some really heavy duty scenarios... think of all the fun stuff that could happen if agents think they are chasing deep one hybrids and suddenly NRO-DELTA turn up in black choppers to recapture... sorry, rescue their enhanced colleagues].
Finally, if there are still ex-DG personnel active in MJ-12 what does this mean? Obviously MJ-12 knows that DG is still (illegally) active (take Fairfield and Groversville as examples), but if they also know about the deep ones (not to mention other horrors... Karotechia perhaps) then would MJ-12 actively oppose all DG operations? I would suggest not, although if salvageable alien technologies or the Greys are involved then obviously MJ-12 will be very aggressive in their actions. But most of the time DG could be treated as a small annoyance and generally tolerated by MJ-12 (not aided of course, but perhaps used to "scout out" things that MJ-12 would like to get it's grasping hands on). This may actually imply that DG has already been infiltrated by MJ-12. Not a nice thought.
Anyway, comments? Is this line of reasoning worth pursuing? Anyone?
From: "gable"
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:51:11 -0500
Taking a cue from Joseph Curwen, I say to you, Graeme Price: do not call up that which ye cannot put downe! --
>YY-II, but back in 1947 MJ-12 also began storing Grey (and perhaps
other
>alien races) there as well.
Ooh. nasty idea, and one I hadn't considered. Are there Star-Spawn of Cthulhu at ICE CAVE?
MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with 15 alien races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones? Well, the Greys, the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the Deep Ones, and then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to say some Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name), the Elder Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two. Any other suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.
>So, is MJ-12 aware of the deep ones? I suspect that this is the case
(or
>perhaps _was_ the case) due to the initial recruitment of DG
personnel
into
>MJ-12 after Roswell. Whether the current MJ-12 heirachy is aware
of
them is
>unknown (after all, the early ex-DG MJ-12 personnel would
have probably
>retired a long time ago). This is actually quite important
in practical terms.
Of course they are. The DG book says so. They think they're another extraterrestrial race, however. As to their being aware of the Deep Ones at ICE CAVE, they probably are. Although, as you point out, the original Majestic personnel kept at ICE CAVE have probably retired or died, the current Steering Committee may have gotten a hold of some documents by their predecessors, maybe even detailing what the Deep Ones were, in actuality.
I'm betting though, that Majestic, in its Grey-controlled form, is chalking that up to "theory and nonsense" and prefers to think that the COVENANT project was launched after a sort of oceanic Roswell. Probably to Majestic the Deep Ones are just EBEs that've been here a long time. The Majestic group's left ICE CAVE alone for quite some time (maybe), although it's possible that Delta Green has procured the facility. Or maybe Majestic still maintains an active presence at ICE CAVE. Live or dead, the Deep Ones stored there would be valuable research tools, and maybe Kroft (MJ-1) is attempting some Deep One-tinged gene therapy to keep him alive. Or maybe ICE CAVE could be used as the staging ground for a massive Delta Green-Majestic showdown (which would also create a PR nightmare...how do you explain two factions of the U.S. Government fighting over a patch of desert land in New Mexico?
Hmm. A neat scenario could be made out of this very idea, throwing in the Dogon/Nommo legends and the myth of Oannes (ichthyan space-men help humankind)as red herrings.
> according to the SEAGATE documents in the DG book, COVENANT is still
an active
> classification).
I knew Scully's Navy brother was up to something! :-)
>In fact, is it possible that the COVENANT programme could be
ressurected
>(perhaps semi-officially) by the ONI as a sort of back
door reactivation
of
>DG? The risks involved in this could be pretty big, however.
Good idea! Possibly. If the experimentation by Kroft listed above takes place, and Kroft became essentially a Deep One hybrid with inside knowledge of governmental workings, when it came time for The Change, he could return to the Deep Ones and become maybe some sort of Deep One battle leader and lead an all-out assault by the Deep Ones upon the U.S./Delta Green. Delta Green's then reactivated, becoming America's first line of defense. All the while DG & MJ are fighting over ICE CAVE...ooh. Nice little idea.
Imagine when New York City becomes a metropolitan version of Innsmouth, decaying and decrepit and all. Oh, wait, it already is. :-)
>Not only that, but are MJ-12 actively researching technologies derived
from deep one
>genetics/metabolism?
Hmm. This kinda gets in the anatomy of a Deep One...are they mammals, reptiles, amphibians, fish, what? (My guess is mammalian [after all, they can interbreed with people] with a lot of herpeto-ichthyan characteristics.) Maybe MJ-12 can find some regenerative qualities...other than that, Deep One DNA (DODNA?) could be useful for anti-aging and immortality techniques. Which makes it all the more likely Justin Kroft'd be interested in this.
BTW, there was an X-Files episode, first season, which dealt with this kind of thing. Some doctor interested in anti-aging was testing this stuff at a prison, as I remember. Except he used salamander DNA. The episode wasn't great, but the idea was good.
Another question Graeme didn't address: what's the Grey/Mi-Go status with the Deep Ones? They're evidently aware of each other (some contactees get the Contact Deep One spell), but are they allies or enemies? Or just aware?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:24:54 -0800
>>>>> Another question Graeme didn't address: what's the Grey/Mi-Go status with the Deep Ones? They're evidently aware of each other (some contactees get the Contact Deep One spell), but are they allies or enemies? Or just aware? <<<<<
I would hazard to speculate that they are opposed to each other's goals.
I've always viewed the Sky-Devils as wanting to postpone the GOO's return to Earth as long as they can, allowing them to keep mining Earth. To whit, they manipulated human genetic code early on to prevent us from developing our true psychic potential and being in close contact with the GOOs. Sort of like recognizing that apes could one day talk and build nuclear bombs, so you remove the ability for that species to develop language. Of course, the Kn'Yan recognized what was going on so they removed themselves from the Sky-Devils' reach, either to vaults within the earth or to alternate dimension, whatever. That's why they have all these nifty neato psychic powers. That's also why the Kn'Yan worship the GOOs and wish to bring about their return.
Well, the Deep Ones are basically aquatic equivalents to the Kn'Yan. They want to bring Cthulhu et. al. back. This would be counter to the Fun Guys' efforts. At least for a while. As such, the Fungi are probably at odds with the efforts of the Deep Ones. Not so much in general, but just to their efforts at hastening the return of the GOOs.
I'm not suggesting the Fungis' don't want to bring back the GOO's at all, they do. They just want some extra time to get done with whatever projects they're working on. They just want to postpone the return of the GOOs.
Deep One: "Let's do Lunch."
Fun Guy: "Not right now, I'm busy."
Deep One: "You don't want to have lunch? I'm hungry."
Fun Guy: "I didn't say that, I do want to have lunch, but I'm kinda busy right now. How about later?"
Deep One: "Later's not a good time, how about right now?"
Fun Guy: "Look, if you have lunch now, it'll ruin what I'm working on. Isn't there any way we can have lunch later?"
Deep One: "No, I'm hungry and I want to have lunch!"
Fun Guy: "Dammit, No! I'm telling you.. HEY! Knock that off!"
scuffle, bump, crash, tink.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:23:34 -0500
From: Steven Kaye
>The original COVENANT deep one specimens were (and still are) stored
at
>YY-II, but back in 1947 MJ-12 also began storing Grey (and perhaps
other
>alien races) there as well. With the abolition of DG as an official
entity,
>what happened to the deep one specimens?
As per the book, they're still there - just catatonic.
>Not only that, but
>are MJ-12 actively researching technologies
derived from deep one
>genetics/metabolism? [this could provide for
some really heavy duty
>scenarios... think of all the fun stuff that
could happen if agents
think
>they are chasing deep one hybrids and suddenly NRO-DELTA turn
up in
black
>choppers to recapture... sorry, rescue their enhanced colleagues].
There's a very silly Derleth story - "The Survivor," in THE WATCHERS OUT OF TIME - which has a mad surgeon extend his lifespan by surgically altering himself into a crocodilian human. Add this with the case history on the DG website about the unnaturally fast-healing MJ mooks and stand back!
>This may actually imply that DG has already been infiltrated by MJ-12.
Not a
>nice thought.
Hmm. MJ-12 would love to have people inside DG, and vice-versa. One wonders what kind of protocols Justin Kroft/Alphonse has in place for the defector from DG/MJ-12 that claims he/she can't stomach what he/she's done and wants to be with the good guys for a change. It's too good to reject out of hand - I suspect a long-term evaluation and recruiting process, similar to that carried out for friendlies, but of much longer duration (and doubtless entailing more intense surveillance on the 'candidate') would be justified.
CONSPIRACY X had some government agencies which were neutral ground - both the Black Book and Aegis had agents in place, because the agencies were too useful for either side to blow the other's cover. This might be true in some DG campaigns as well.
>Anyway, comments? Is this line of reasoning worth pursuing?
Definitely.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:34:24 -0500
From: Steven Kaye
>MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with
15 alien
>races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones?
Well, the
Greys,
>the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the Deep
Ones,
and
>then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to say
some
>Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name),
the
Elder
>Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two. Any
other
>suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.
The Traveler. Possibly Astral Parasites and the Thief of Form from GOLDEN DAWN, assuming I'm interpreting hints about the Philadelphia Experiment from Alphonse and others correctly. Do Tcho-Tcho count as an alien race?
>Hmm. This kinda gets in the anatomy of a Deep One...are they
mammals,
>reptiles, amphibians, fish, what? (My guess is mammalian
[after all,
they
>can interbreed with people] with a lot of herpeto-ichthyan
characteristics.)
>Maybe MJ-12 can find some regenerative qualities...other
than that,
Deep One
>DNA (DODNA?) could be useful for anti-aging and immortality
techniques.
>Which makes it all the more likely Justin Kroft'd be
interested in
this.
In one of his drafts of "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," Lovecraft considered making Deep Ones an atavism to which humans could revert, similar to ghouls. No interbreeding in one's tree required. I always wanted to use this idea in a campaign - toss it in with "The Mound" (in which the K'n-Yan dwellers claim they were brought down from the stars with Tulu), and do something spectacularly unpleasant to players' heads with the knowledge that Humanity itself was a Mythos race.
>BTW, there was an X-Files episode, first season, which dealt with
this kind
>of thing. Some doctor interested in anti-aging was testing
this stuff
at a
>prison, as I remember. Except he used salamander DNA. The episode
wasn't
>great, but the idea was good.
Dear God, first season and already Chris Carter was ripping off "The Alligator People"?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:26:29 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man in Black
> MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with
15 alien
> races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones?
Well, the
Greys,
> the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the
Deep Ones,
and
> then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to
say
some
> Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name),
the Elder
> Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two.
Any other
> suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.
The Traveler Parasite.
From: Davide Mana
>The original COVENANT deep one specimens were (and still are) stored
at
>YY-II, but back in 1947 MJ-12 also began storing Grey (and perhaps
other
>alien races) there as well. With the abolition of DG as an official
entity,
>what happened to the deep one specimens?
IIRC, ever since the beginning of the MJ franchise, there was a not so hidden distaste between DeltaGreeners and Majestics - the Majestic gang was hot on the trail of some pretty hard science from outer space, and the occult trappings of DG were seen as something out of the past, and still belonging there.
I would not be surprised to discover that at least the bulk of the COVENANT material was never shown to the MJ guys - Delta Green beeing pretty secretive and paranoid even back then. Probably our predecessors just gave the MJ guys enough data about Deep Ones to grant an assignation of funds to keep on studying that "alien race". In short, let's not underestimate the survival instincts of the old, legit Delta Green.
>What I'm trying to say is this: Presumably YY-II is split into 2 sections
-
>one controlled by MJ-12 for their alien storage programme, and
one
>(smaller?) section responsible for the curation of the deep ones
(and
>presumably still using the old COVENANT classification).
Very very likely.
Double assets are not an unheard of thing in this
line of work.
Do not let your left hand etc.
>So, is MJ-12 aware of the deep ones?
As I said, probably just through a minimum of COVENANT stuff that was handled them as a bait. MJ is essentially materialistic - do you think they'd buy an alien race that has to be contacted by chanting a spell by the sea?
I suspect that part was kept from them, or they dismissed it as "speculation based upon unverified assumptions". This does not mean, of course that a particularly inquisitive majestic man could not go and dig up all the stuff again, through an inter-departmental investigation or even something less official - something like an MJ Mulder/Loengard.
This has not happened yet - I guess - as MJ-12 does not seem to encourage or nurture overinquisitiveness in its lower/medium echelons.
>Finally, if there are still ex-DG personnel active in MJ-12 what does
this
>mean? Obviously MJ-12 knows that DG is still (illegally) active
(take
>Fairfield and Groversville as examples), but if they also know
about
the
>deep ones (not to mention other horrors... Karotechia perhaps)
then
would
>MJ-12 actively oppose all DG operations?
I see two limitations to the idea of MJ constantly opposing DG
a - even given their past actions (Uncle Reggie etc.) Majestic does not know the full extent and current potential of Delta Green - hopefully. I think they underestiomate us, and would like for them to keep underestimating us.
b - sometimes your adversaries can work for you.
While the goals (and focuses) of DG and MJ are almost mutually exclusive, on a smaller scale we sometimes work in the same direction. When this happens, the active entity is given a free hand and the passive stands on the side and looks.
> But most of the time DG
>could be treated as a small annoyance
and generally tolerated by MJ-12
(not
>aided of course, but perhaps used to "scout out" things that
MJ-12
would
>like to get it's grasping hands on).
Exactly what I meant.
>This may actually imply that DG has
>already been infiltrated
by MJ-12. Not a nice thought.
Or that they are keeping an eye on some of our own shows.
On the other
hand, we're doing the same with them, and their structure
is much more open to infiltration.
From: Rob Shankly
I think MJ-12 know that Ghouls exist, although there probably has been little if any contact with them.
In addition, I think they may have "lost" an operative or two over the years to the Great Race. The strange behaviour of the "translated" person would almost certainly be noticed, perhaps leading MJ12 to researching similar occurances in history.
Serpent Men? Maybe there's one stored in the next freezer over from the Deep Ones?
Other possibilities include DYSN (they seem to turn up as "temple guards" in a lot of published scenarios), Nightgaunts and Fire Vampires.
Finally, MJ12 *must* have encountered a Colour Out of Space at some time or other. I'm not sure if they would see it as an EBE or as some kind of radiation (I think this is more likely if they came upon the aftermath of a CooS visitation).
> MACHINATIONS OF THE MI-GO says that Majestic has had contact with
15 alien
> races, both extraterrestrial and terrestrial. Which ones?
Well, the
Greys,
> the Mi-Go (they consider them two species), the Shan, the
Deep Ones,
and
> then this is where it enters into speculation. I'd hazard to
say
some
> Cthulhi (hey, at least Lumley gave Cthulhu's spawn a kewl name),
the Elder
> Things, probably Byakhee, and maybe a Shoggoth or two.
Any other
> suggestions? The list isn't even close to 15.
Back to DYSN: does anyone remember the Crinoid (sp?) from an episode of Dr.Who (The Seeds of Doom?); this was a giant, intelligent carnivorous plant, capable of awaking dangerous sentience in other plants...
Scenario Seed: Federal agents called in to deal with mysterious dissapearance of hikers/hunters in semi-wilderness area. Nearby buildings are a biological research institute staffed by mad scientist type determined to breed a race of intelligent plants; these will conquer the world and usher in an age of "green friendly" peaceful civilisation. The madman might be basing his plant genetics on a pet DYSN, which he is feeding straying humans. Or maybe he's simply shooting and burying trespassers.
From: Phil Ward
> Scenario Seed: Majestic has copies of summon-sound spells
stored
> at a KYBF radio station, a front organisation where much of
there
sound
> analysis takes place. A burglar (perhaps backed by the FATE)
breaks
in and
> steals the KYBF record collection, including the sound equivalent
of
> "Summon Deep One" The collection finds its way onto the black
market
and an
> up-and-coming rave group hears the Summon Deep One groove
and decides
to
> sample it for the next record. DG learns of this (somehow) and
has
to stop the
> record before it becomes a big hit.
Heh, nice :)
OK: KYBF is in fact an NSA front, and the large ariels they use are also wired up as listening posts... probably out in the desert somewhere, miles from anywhere. MJ-12 has some connections and uses the for analysis, because you need some serious processing power for some of that stuff.
Underneath we have some buried super computers, a small response team in case, and highly trained operatives that just happen to look like truckers, etc.
Maybe a small diner over the other side of the highway so vehicles can be parked outside and not raise too much suspicion.
The burglar is a fate dupe, but breaks free of his control, or is robbed himself, perhaps by loan sharks, etc, and the recording make their way out onto the black market.
DG here about it when one small part of a tape is played on pirate radio, and someone with the summon deep one spell recognises the chant. Perhaps DG here a snippet of a summon grey tape, and find the similarities ...disturbing...
