DiskWars Advanced Issues 1: Conditional and Threat Disks

<body topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0> <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0 height="100%"><tr> <td valign="top" width=200 BGCOLOR="#003333" TEXT="#F7F7FF" background="25ae1c00dduajq.gif"> <div> <TABLE BORDER="0" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0" WIDTH="95" BORDERCOLORLIGHT="#C0C0C0" BORDERCOLORDARK="#808080" FRAME="BOX" RULES="ALL" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0" > <tR> <tD VALIGN=TOP HEIGHT= 46 WIDTH="91"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="1x1.gif" HEIGHT="46" ALIGN="bottom" WIDTH="91" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0"></tD> </tR> </TABLE></div> <div>               </div> <bR> <bR> <div>  </div> <div> Navigation Links</div> <div> <A HREF="id53.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="Garrison 188 "><U>Garrison 188 </U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id18.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="Disk Wars: The Articles"><U>Disk Wars: The Articles</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id61.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="Conversations: A new DiskWarrior to an o"><U>Conversations: A new DiskWarrior to an old Veteran</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id28.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="DiskWars Intermediate Issues 1: Army Con"><U>DiskWars Intermediate Issues 1: Army Construction</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id30.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="DiskWars Intermediate Issues 2: Army Uni"><U>DiskWars Intermediate Issues 2: Army Unit Composition</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id29.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="DiskWars Intermediate Issues 3: Trade To"><U>DiskWars Intermediate Issues 3: Trade Topics</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id49.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="DiskWars Advanced Issues 2: Range Consid"><U>DiskWars Advanced Issues 2: Range Considerations</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id50.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="DiskWars Advanced Issues 3: Missile Drop"><U>DiskWars Advanced Issues 3: Missile Drops</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id51.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="DiskWars Advanced Issues 4: Terrain"><U>DiskWars Advanced Issues 4: Terrain</U></A></div> <div> <A HREF="id21.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="Disk Trades Central Page"><U>Disk Trades Central Page</U></A></div> <bR> </td> <td valign="top" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#080000" background="163df0e3.gif"> <div> <FONT SIZE="5" COLOR="#BF0000" FACE="Arial" ><B>The Mojo Dojo</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#BF0000" FACE="Arial" >  </FONT>   |     <A HREF="index.htm" TARGET="_top" TITLE="The Mojo Dojo"><U>home</U></A></div> <div>                                                   </div> <div>                                          <FONT SIZE="4" COLOR="#BF0000" FACE="Arial" ><IMG SRC="0eb98980.gif" border=0 width="152" height="152" ALT="Bitmap Image" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0"></FONT></div> <div> <IMG SRC="1b516160.gif" border=0 width="22" height="22" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0">DiskWars Advanced Issues 1: Conditional and Threat Disks</div> <div> <B>It is particularly easy to look at a disk's attack, defense, and toughness (and other quatified numbers) and say whether a disk is cost effective.  But what about the non-quantified aspects of a disk?  In the end, the most important thing is for you, the player, to make a judgement.  Following is a series of digest emails from </B><A HREF="http://ffg.wyldware.com/" TARGET="_top" TITLE="http://ffg.wyldware.com/"><U><B>http://ffg.wyldware.com/</B></U></A><B> discussing the softer, but quite real, aspects of a disks make-up:</B><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" ><B>  </B></FONT><FONT SIZE="3" COLOR="#00BF00" FACE="Arial" ><B>N.B., FFG has "restarted" the DiskWars Forum at </B><A HREF="http://www.diskwars.com/" TARGET="_top" TITLE="http://www.diskwars.com/"><U><B>http://www.DiskWars.com</B></U></A><B>.  The fate of "archived" topics is being considered by the webmaster.  Just be aware that the old forum, and archives, may be irretrievable in the near future.</B></FONT></div> <bR> <div> <B>Mojo </B></div> <div> <B> <IMG SRC="1b516160.gif" border=0 width="22" height="22" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0">Monday, December 18, 2000 - 08:36 am </B></div> <div> <B>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- </B></div> <div> <B>(N4M8- disagreed somewhat on Desert Stalkers being the best scut troops due to the need to leave them unactivated to fully use their abilities) </B></div> <div> <B>------------------------------------------------- </B></div> <div> <B>A good point on Accolytes, N4.... Which brings up a tangent question: Are conditional units, or units with additional skills/SAs, worth the points outside of their conditions? </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Examples: Goblin Crossbowz have the condition that they cause double damage from their friendly fire. However, at 2 points, I don't consider the drawback bad enough not to use them. Tying back into the thread, they could be considered better scut troops than grugs or urkan hordes.... </B></div> <div> <B>Tyrnask Rex is 25 points! He's a great combatant and a level 3 spellcaster. But if he's doing one, he can't do the other (not at the same time, anyway). Wouldn't he be better at 18-20 points, without the spellcasting ability? In other words, I find TRex not to be a bargain.... </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>More fodder for the fire.... </B></div> <div> <B> </B></div> <div> <B>   </B></div> <div> <B>N4M8- </B></div> <div> <B><IMG SRC="1b516160.gif" border=0 width="22" height="22" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0"> Monday, December 18, 2000 - 12:30 pm </B></div> <div> <B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</B></div> <div> <B>I do actually agree that they are the "best", just that that doesn't mean they are great or even </B></div> <div> <B>particularly good. On a side note, I did finally manage to make them work for me by using 8 of them as an advancing line and advancing slowly, making the threat that other, larger, units to their rear would could flip to attack anything that attacked the Desert Stalkers. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>To the question at hand about conditional units and cost I would say that the cost effectiveness is heavily dependent on the condition which makes them effective. Mist children (especially when used in conjunction with the Warleader) are horribly effective because their condition is easily achieved. I agree in your assessment of Goblin Crossbowz--they are cheap, provide activation advantage when you can't use them for their missle, and it is often easy to avoid their condition. Tyrnask Rex is a bargain at 25 points. Consider, how many level 3 spells are you likely to have anyway? Not many. So what you have is a spellcaster that isn't likely to die due to a suicide charge launched by an opponent for the purpose of taking out your spellcaster that is an extremely capable combat unit. Trynask Rex was in my GenCon army for precisely this efficiency (not to mention how handy he is when you are using Disciples of Wind). 10-5-8, 3 Wounds, Flying, Move 4 would be massively undercosted as a non-champion disk at 18 points (consider Spiderbeast and Great Roc). </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Back on track, the issue is how easily is the condition avoided or invoked. Sand Dancers are too pricey for a 4-1-3 combat unit, and their special ability is so hard to arrange that it shouldn't bump their cost to more than 5 in my book--except we know FFG hates the Acolytes. Initiates special advantage is never going to happen, and to try to make it happen you'd have to play a pure army--and all for the chance to possibly cast a free 4 point or less spell?!?!? For the points you spent on the Initiates you could have a Familiar and not have to rely on a board condition that probable will never exist. Can you believe they then had the nerve to indicate you were limited to 3 of them? Why? They actually thought someone would take more? </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>I'm not sure that you could really say that generally condition based units either are or are not cost effective. </B></div> <div> <B> </B></div> <div> <B>   </B></div> <div> <B>Guvmint Helper </B></div> <div> <B> <IMG SRC="1b516160.gif" border=0 width="22" height="22" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0">Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 05:44 pm </B></div> <div> <B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</B></div> <div> <B>Hmm, there are, I think, distinct categories of units here: conditional units and "decision" units. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Conditional units would be those that require something to happen before their full utility comes into play. The best example would be Transformers or Berserkers. Peter Bakija dislikes Berserkers because he feels that he's paying for ability that he might not get to use, and that's a valid point. Other examples are Initiates (and I'm actually thinking of a really nasty way to use them in a 200+ point game, N4M8-...), Sanddancers, Goblin Marauders and Raiders, Spearmen of the Deep, Kerybus Wolves (shouldn't that be Cerberus?). It's a long list. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Decision disks are those for which you have to decide whether to use one feature or another. Tyrnask is a big example, frequently, as are Cyrix Jade and, even bigger, Ygraal the Ancient. Helspanth is not, because while he's either an Archer or a Melee unit, his archery is so bad in comparison that it's not really a decision. Oboros is not because you don't have to choose between his spellcasting and his movement-boosting abilities. Other examples (from non-Dragon factions) include the new Uthuk spellcasters (especially Deathblade - is she a caster, a ZOT!-er or a fighter? Or a lover? Nah), Desert Stalkers (combat-troop Activation or barrier?), several spellcasters (Turzak, Morgaine, a couple of elves), et aliter. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>The Conditional units are intriguing because you run the risk of paying for an ability that you never use. Decision units have a similar dilemma, but the difference is that Decision disks tend to be an embarassment of riches sort of problem (wanting one disk to do more than one thing), while Conditions can become a frustrating effort to bring an expensive item into play. Boy do you feel silly with Lucera the Pious in your army against Vorik's Dwarves, for example. You don't feel nearly as silly with Tyrnask if he never successfully casts a spell (unless you did something dumb to let him get instantly destroyed by a Viper Legion or something). Even if my Desert Stalker never prevents something from Activating to Attack, it's probably been about as useful as a Men of the Sword. Even if the K'zayas Master never actually attacks something, you've probably gotten a couple of instant-destructions out of him. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>There are some disks that are, strictly, conditional, that aren't, really. Royal Jesters and Rotham Mist Children, for example, are only useful if they get close to enemy disks, but the whole point of the game is to get close to enemy disks, so they're no more conditional than are Harbingers (only useful if within 12 inches of Activated enemy disks), The Mighty Garnoth (only useful if within two flips of an enemy disk with sufficient Toughness) or, for that matter, Vhass Frothan (only useful if he attacks an enemy disk). Brother Trannyre is a seriously conditional disk, and you pay too much for that conditional ability. Zhala Bakhal isn't, really, despite the inability to use that Ambush ability unless some enemy disks get pinned (and Zhala is underpriced even without that SA). </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>I guess, in sum, I agree with N4M8- that the value of an attribute or SA depends heavily on its likelihood of coming into play, but I wanted to draw an extra distinction to make the discussion more involved and, hopefully, less useful to the uninitiated. Can anyone suggest places in which I could have used specialized jargon to obfuscate things more? </B></div> <div> <B> </B></div> <div> <B>   </B></div> <div> <B>Daddy-Wolf </B></div> <div> <B><IMG SRC="1b516160.gif" border=0 width="22" height="22" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0"> Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 03:34 am </B></div> <div> <B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</B></div> <div> <B>I have always considered these "decisional" or "conditional" disk to fall under a broader category; threat disks. Every disk (or nearly every disk) is capable of the most rudimentary form of disabling action and that is pinning/attacking and opposing disk. I would qualify missile dropping as another rudimentary form of disabling action. However, any disk that goes beyond these actions by means of an additional skill is a "threat disk." </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>So... going back to Mojo's original question,"Are conditional units, or units with additional skills/SA's, worth the points outside of their conditions?" </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>I would have to answer, "yes." </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>However, an objective determination of how effective each disk performs is nearly impossible to determine. For instance, I just finished a game in which I employed T. Rex. Other than move forward his first turn he did nothing all game. My opponent kept pinning him. The threat of T.Rex was so strong he never left him alone. Even at the great expense of 2 fairie swarms, (which my Fairie Princess plucked off of T.Rex) two Godstone Raptors and Solonar Avarnoth. He also employed his Elven Bards to get these units over to T.Rex. </B></div> <div> <B>Though we never finished the game - his army was in dissarray over this "threat" disk. Though I never really employed his "desicional" qualities. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Also, I played an earlier game today with Acolytes. My Moulder of The Sand was unable to set up his condition (being within 6" of an enemy disk) to instant blow for six. This might not seem impressive. However, once the game was over my opponent revealed to me that he avoided my backline - because of the Moulder of The Sand. My backline troops contained two Mentalists which my opponent really wanted to destroy. But the Moulder kept him at bay. Was he worth it? Probably. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Though you may never enter into the condition which favors the design of a certain disk, the threat that that particular condition might arise, often impacts greatly on an opponents playing style. If it is enough to unbalance your opponent's playing style - the "threat" disk need do nothing other than provide a threat. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>N4M8-</B></div> <div> <B><IMG SRC="1b516160.gif" border=0 width="22" height="22" ALIGN="BOTTOM" HSPACE="0" VSPACE="0">Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 11:17 am </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Certainly the concept of threats has entered my consideration of units. For example, I won't take just one Molder of Sand. I instead always take two and try to keep them 5" to 6" apart so as to threaten to pound anything which pins one with the other. With a good distance between them the job of disabling them is made harder because one disk can't pin them both. Another, less drastic, threat is to do the same thing with Disciples of Wind (and Levitators to the rear). Anything which attacks one DoW comes under the possibility of being levitated and removed by another DoW. </B></div> <bR> <div> <B>Going back to Guvmint's post, yes you may never actually use the condition on a condition disk, but this may be perfectly fine in that the threat of the condition has benefits. The Molder of Sand, again, has a condition the other side wants to avoid that you have a relatively easy time achieving. The very big problem, to my mind, is the existence of disks that, for their cost, have conditions that are much to hard to achieve or whose payoff under the condition are insufficient to compensate for the cost of creating the condition. </B></div> <bR> </td> </tr></table></body>